20 Hydrogen Myths (Whitepaper) - Revision history

Eric: Moved some stuff around

2020-10-07T00:05:43Z

Moved some stuff around

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:05, 7 October 2020
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	* "A hydrogen-optimized internal-combustion engine can be ~30–50% more efficient than today’s gasoline engines — i.e., about as efficient as a diesel engine, but much cleaner. BMW even hopes to raise the peak fuel-to-output-shaft efficiency of new hydrogen internal-combustion engines to ~50%.Converting existing cars to hydrogen fueling, however, would capture a much smaller efficiency gain. Enthusiasts of such fuel-system retrofits have not convincingly explained how an internal-combustion-engine car could get a decent driving range from the hydrogen without using such a big hydrogen tank as to leave insufficient space for people and cargo."		* "A hydrogen-optimized internal-combustion engine can be ~30–50% more efficient than today’s gasoline engines — i.e., about as efficient as a diesel engine, but much cleaner. BMW even hopes to raise the peak fuel-to-output-shaft efficiency of new hydrogen internal-combustion engines to ~50%.Converting existing cars to hydrogen fueling, however, would capture a much smaller efficiency gain. Enthusiasts of such fuel-system retrofits have not convincingly explained how an internal-combustion-engine car could get a decent driving range from the hydrogen without using such a big hydrogen tank as to leave insufficient space for people and cargo."


	*** "In general, the best way to get access to where you want to be is to be there already, via sensible land-use (spatial planning or its market equivalent — American communities would have a lot less sprawl if their governments at all levels didn’t mandate and subsidize it)."
	****So true it hurts lol (also [[NUMTOT]] / [[New Urbanism]] has entered the chat)
	**
	=On the suggestion of using hydrogen fuel cells near term in stationary units=		=On the suggestion of using hydrogen fuel cells near term in stationary units=
	*" ...in buildings. There, ultra-reliableand digital-quality fuel-cell power, the reuse of “waste” heat for heating and cooling, and competing with delivered electricity (a very costly form of energy154) can make even today’s costly handmade fuel cells cost-effective today if properly sited and used"		*" ...in buildings. There, ultra-reliableand digital-quality fuel-cell power, the reuse of “waste” heat for heating and cooling, and competing with delivered electricity (a very costly form of energy154) can make even today’s costly handmade fuel cells cost-effective today if properly sited and used"
	**Need to see how this compares to modern battery systems		**Need to see how this compares to modern battery systems

			==Valid Point on the Failure of Urban Planning in The USA on grounds of sustainability and s u b u r b s==
			*"In general, the best way to get access to where you want to be is to be there already, via sensible land-use (spatial planning or its market equivalent — American communities would have a lot less sprawl if their governments at all levels didn’t mandate and subsidize it)."

	=Internal Links=		=Internal Links=

Eric: Minor Text Formating Fix

2020-10-07T00:04:16Z

Minor Text Formating Fix

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:04, 7 October 2020
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	====Quote 2====		====Quote 2====
	"California has largely abandoned its mandate to introduce battery-electric cars because battery technology, as RMI predicted, was overtaken by hybrid technology, which will in turn be trumped by fuel cells. Battery-electric cars are a valid concept for niche markets, but (as Professor P.D. van der Koogh of the Delft University of Technology remarked) are “cars for carryingmainly batteries — but not very far and not very fast, or else they would have to carry even more batteries.” Although batteries’ energy density, life, and cost can be considerably improved, it is still probably easier to make a good fuel cell than a good battery, and the comparative advantage of the technologies that compete with batteries is probably more likely to expand than to shrink."		"California has largely abandoned its mandate to introduce battery-electric cars because battery technology, as RMI predicted, was overtaken by hybrid technology, which will in turn be trumped by fuel cells. Battery-electric cars are a valid concept for niche markets, but (as Professor P.D. van der Koogh of the Delft University of Technology remarked) are “cars for carryingmainly batteries — but not very far and not very fast, or else they would have to carry even more batteries.” Although batteries’ energy density, life, and cost can be considerably improved, it is still probably easier to make a good fuel cell than a good battery, and the comparative advantage of the technologies that compete with batteries is probably more likely to expand than to shrink."

	(need to check how the subsidies etc are in 2020/2019)		(need to check how the subsidies etc are in 2020/2019)

Eric: Added some more information

2020-10-07T00:03:43Z

Added some more information

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:03, 7 October 2020
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	(need to check how the subsidies etc are in 2020/2019)		(need to check how the subsidies etc are in 2020/2019)

	*** "...However, the 2–3-fold efficiency advantage of the fuel cell, i.e., less energy expended per mile, compared to a gasoline engine"		==On their math behind comparisons to other technology==
	****I feel most of the ~~issues are brushed off via comparing~~ fuel ~~cells~~ to ~~gasoline~~ engines, ~~which is valid~~ and ~~fuel cells ARE GREAT, but this point is irrelevant with [[HICEs]] which may even add more inefficiency~~		*Mainly how most calculations are based off of utilizing fuell cell efficiency vs a [[HICE]] setup to offset storage losses etc
			* "...However, the 2–3-fold efficiency advantage of the fuel cell, i.e., less energy expended per mile, compared to a gasoline engine"
			* "A hydrogen-optimized internal-combustion engine can be ~30–50% more efficient than today’s gasoline engines — i.e., about as efficient as a diesel engine, but much cleaner. BMW even hopes to raise the peak fuel-to-output-shaft efficiency of new hydrogen internal-combustion engines to ~50%.Converting existing cars to hydrogen fueling, however, would capture a much smaller efficiency gain. Enthusiasts of such fuel-system retrofits have not convincingly explained how an internal-combustion-engine car could get a decent driving range from the hydrogen without using such a big hydrogen tank as to leave insufficient space for people and cargo."


	*** "In general, the best way to get access to where you want to be is to be there already, via sensible land-use (spatial planning or its market equivalent — American communities would have a lot less sprawl if their governments at all levels didn’t mandate and subsidize it)."		*** "In general, the best way to get access to where you want to be is to be there already, via sensible land-use (spatial planning or its market equivalent — American communities would have a lot less sprawl if their governments at all levels didn’t mandate and subsidize it)."
	****So true it hurts lol (also [[NUMTOT]] / [[New Urbanism]] has entered the chat)		****So true it hurts lol (also [[NUMTOT]] / [[New Urbanism]] has entered the chat)
	*** "A hydrogen-optimized internal-combustion engine can be ~30–50% more efficient than today’s gasoline engines — i.e., about as efficient as a diesel engine, but much cleaner. BMW even hopes to raise the ~~peak fuel-to-output-shaft efficiency~~ of new hydrogen internal-combustion engines to ~50%.Converting existing cars to hydrogen fueling, however, would capture a much smaller efficiency gain. Enthusiasts of such fuel-system retrofits have not convincingly explained how an internal-combustion-engine car could get a decent driving range from the hydrogen without using ~~such a big~~ hydrogen ~~tank as to leave insufficient space for people and cargo."~~		**
	****This is my main concern for non fuel ~~cell applications~~		=On the suggestion of using hydrogen fuel cells near term in stationary units=
	*** " ...in buildings. There, ultra-reliableand digital-quality fuel-cell power, the reuse of “waste” heat for heating and cooling, and competing with delivered electricity (a very costly form of energy154) can make even today’s costly handmade fuel cells cost-effective today if properly sited and used"		*" ...in buildings. There, ultra-reliableand digital-quality fuel-cell power, the reuse of “waste” heat for heating and cooling, and competing with delivered electricity (a very costly form of energy154) can make even today’s costly handmade fuel cells cost-effective today if properly sited and used"
	****Need to see how this compares to modern battery systems		**Need to see how this compares to modern battery systems

Eric: Added some more information

2020-10-07T00:00:12Z

Added some more information

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:00, 7 October 2020
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	*Using the USA as an example, and [https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/transportation.php This EIA Page, Hydrogen is no more than 3% ? (outside of potential hydrogen being hidden under the 4% of natural gas/shale gas, and the 5% of biofuels)		*Using the USA as an example, and [https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/transportation.php This EIA Page, Hydrogen is no more than 3% ? (outside of potential hydrogen being hidden under the 4% of natural gas/shale gas, and the 5% of biofuels)

	~~***~~ "Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."		==On Their Predictions for Battery Based (Hybrid) Electric Vehicles==
	****Lithium Ion Battery ~~Development may~~ have ~~gone way farther~~ than ~~they predicted~~		===Quotes===
			====Quote 1====
			"Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."

			====Quote 2====
			"California has largely abandoned its mandate to introduce battery-electric cars because battery technology, as RMI predicted, was overtaken by hybrid technology, which will in turn be trumped by fuel cells. Battery-electric cars are a valid concept for niche markets, but (as Professor P.D. van der Koogh of the Delft University of Technology remarked) are “cars for carryingmainly batteries — but not very far and not very fast, or else they would have to carry even more batteries.” Although batteries’ energy density, life, and cost can be considerably improved, it is still probably easier to make a good fuel cell than a good battery, and the comparative advantage of the technologies that compete with batteries is probably more likely to expand than to shrink."

			(need to check how the subsidies etc are in 2020/2019)

	*** "...However, the 2–3-fold efficiency advantage of the fuel cell, i.e., less energy expended per mile, compared to a gasoline engine"		*** "...However, the 2–3-fold efficiency advantage of the fuel cell, i.e., less energy expended per mile, compared to a gasoline engine"
	****I feel most of the issues are brushed off via comparing fuel cells to gasoline engines, which is valid and fuel cells ARE GREAT, but this point is irrelevant with [[HICEs]] which may even add more inefficiency		****I feel most of the issues are brushed off via comparing fuel cells to gasoline engines, which is valid and fuel cells ARE GREAT, but this point is irrelevant with [[HICEs]] which may even add more inefficiency
Line 24:		Line 32:
	*** " ...in buildings. There, ultra-reliableand digital-quality fuel-cell power, the reuse of “waste” heat for heating and cooling, and competing with delivered electricity (a very costly form of energy154) can make even today’s costly handmade fuel cells cost-effective today if properly sited and used"		*** " ...in buildings. There, ultra-reliableand digital-quality fuel-cell power, the reuse of “waste” heat for heating and cooling, and competing with delivered electricity (a very costly form of energy154) can make even today’s costly handmade fuel cells cost-effective today if properly sited and used"
	****Need to see how this compares to modern battery systems		****Need to see how this compares to modern battery systems
	*** "California has largely abandoned its mandate to introduce battery-electric cars because battery technology, as RMI predicted, was overtaken by hybrid technology, which will in turn be trumped by fuel cells. Battery-electric cars are a valid concept for niche markets, but (as Professor P.D. van der Koogh of the Delft University of Technology remarked) are “cars for carryingmainly batteries — but not very far and not very fast, or else they would have to carry even more batteries.” Although batteries’ energy density, life, and cost can be considerably improved, it is still probably easier to make a good fuel cell than a good battery, and the comparative advantage of the technologies that compete with batteries is probably more likely to expand than to shrink."
	****That aged poorly...

	=Internal Links=		=Internal Links=

Eric: Added some more information

2020-10-06T23:45:32Z

Added some more information

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:45, 6 October 2020
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	"hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"		"hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"

			===Analysis===
			*Using the USA as an example, and [https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/transportation.php This EIA Page, Hydrogen is no more than 3% ? (outside of potential hydrogen being hidden under the 4% of natural gas/shale gas, and the 5% of biofuels)

	*** "Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."		*** "Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."

Eric: Minor Text Formating Fix

2020-10-06T22:33:46Z

Minor Text Formating Fix

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:33, 6 October 2020
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	=Analysis of Various Quotes=		=Analysis of Various Quotes=
	==On a estimate (by who?) of hydrogen adoption in the transit sector==		==On a estimate (by who?) of hydrogen adoption in the transit sector==
	~~***~~ "hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"		===Quote===
			"hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"

Eric: Added some more information

2020-10-06T22:33:27Z

Added some more information

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:33, 6 October 2020
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	=Analysis of Various Quotes=		=Analysis of Various Quotes=
			==On a estimate (by who?) of hydrogen adoption in the transit sector==
	*** "hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"		*** "hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"


	*** "Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."		*** "Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."
	****Lithium Ion Battery Development may have gone way farther than they predicted		****Lithium Ion Battery Development may have gone way farther than they predicted

Eric: Added some more information

2020-10-06T22:32:38Z

Added some more information

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:32, 6 October 2020
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	*Supported Decentralized Production of Hydrogen via [[Electrolysis of Water]] and Reforming of Hydrocarbons (Mainly [[Methane Reforming]] ) for most of the early hydrogen economy, with the addition of new pilepines/systems being developed once demand is made. (Sidenote Hydrogen Pipelines already exist, and [[Natural Gas Pipelines]] can use [[HCNG]] with little to no modifications, and with some modifications use pure hydrogen gas)		*Supported Decentralized Production of Hydrogen via [[Electrolysis of Water]] and Reforming of Hydrocarbons (Mainly [[Methane Reforming]] ) for most of the early hydrogen economy, with the addition of new pilepines/systems being developed once demand is made. (Sidenote Hydrogen Pipelines already exist, and [[Natural Gas Pipelines]] can use [[HCNG]] with little to no modifications, and with some modifications use pure hydrogen gas)

	=~~Seminal Work by Lovins~~=		=Analysis of Various Quotes=
	**Intresting quotes to dive into later:
	*** "hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"		*** "hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"
	*** "Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."		*** "Turning wheels with electric motors has well-known advantages of torque, ruggedness, reliability, simplicity, controllability, quietness, and low cost. Heavy and costly batteries have limited battery-powered electric cars to small niche markets, although the miniature lithium batteries now used in cellphones are severalfold better than the batteries used in electric cars. But California regulators’ initial focus on battery cars had a huge societal value because it greatly advanced electric drivesystems. The only question is where to get the electricity. Hybrid-electric cars now on the market from Honda and Toyota, and soon from virtually all automakers, make the electricity with onboard engine-generators, or recover it from braking. These “hybrid-electric” designs provide all the advantages of electric propulsion without the disadvantages of batteries. Still better will be fuel cells — the most efficient (~50–70% from hydrogen to direct-current electricity), clean, and reliable known way to make electricity from fuel. Nearly all significant automakers now have major fuel-cell car development programs."

Eric: Minor Text Formating Fix

2020-10-06T22:24:49Z

Minor Text Formating Fix

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:24, 6 October 2020
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	=External Links=		=External Links=
	*[https://rmi.org/insight/twenty-hydrogen-myths/ A RMI Page for Downloading the Paper as a PDF]		*[https://rmi.org/insight/twenty-hydrogen-myths/ A RMI Page for Downloading the Paper as a PDF]
	*[[https://www.scribd.com/doc/71456929/e03-05-20hydrogenmyths?secret_password=gow2fk3d1e0gayhwls0#fullscreen&from_embed] Scribd Source]		*[https://www.scribd.com/doc/71456929/e03-05-20hydrogenmyths?secret_password=gow2fk3d1e0gayhwls0#fullscreen&from_embed Scribd Source]

Eric: Moved some stuff around

2020-10-06T22:24:19Z

Moved some stuff around

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:24, 6 October 2020
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	=Seminal Work by Lovins=		=Seminal Work by Lovins=
	*20 hydrogen myths - [https://www.scribd.com/doc/71456929/e03-05-20hydrogenmyths?secret_password=gow2fk3d1e0gayhwls0#fullscreen&from_embed] published 2003/updated 2005, need to compare estimate vs reality (composite tanks may have been faster than expected, adoption/investment less etc)
	**[https://rmi.org/insight/twenty-hydrogen-myths/ Non-scribd source]
	**Intresting quotes to dive into later:		**Intresting quotes to dive into later:
	*** "hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"		*** "hydrogen would fuel a fourth of the vehicle fleet in the industrialized countries by 2025"
Line 33:		Line 31:
	=External Links=		=External Links=
	*[https://rmi.org/insight/twenty-hydrogen-myths/ A RMI Page for Downloading the Paper as a PDF]		*[https://rmi.org/insight/twenty-hydrogen-myths/ A RMI Page for Downloading the Paper as a PDF]
			*[[https://www.scribd.com/doc/71456929/e03-05-20hydrogenmyths?secret_password=gow2fk3d1e0gayhwls0#fullscreen&from_embed] Scribd Source]