AFCI + GFCI Protection - Revision history

Marcin: /* AFCI Controversy */

2024-05-06T22:31:16Z

AFCI Controversy

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:31, 6 May 2024
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	***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.		***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.
	**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]		**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]
			***{{check}}{{check}}{{check}}Suspicion seems verified in the 9 answers the day after the post. - MJ 5/6/24
	**{{check}}If you start digging deeper - more bogus data on AFCI effectiveness - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/arc-fault-option.161977/page-9]		**{{check}}If you start digging deeper - more bogus data on AFCI effectiveness - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/arc-fault-option.161977/page-9]
	**(<strike>See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.</strike>		**(<strike>See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.</strike>

Marcin: /* AFCI Controversy */

2024-05-06T22:22:59Z

AFCI Controversy

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:22, 6 May 2024
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	**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]		**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]
	**{{check}}If you start digging deeper - more bogus data on AFCI effectiveness - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/arc-fault-option.161977/page-9]		**{{check}}If you start digging deeper - more bogus data on AFCI effectiveness - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/arc-fault-option.161977/page-9]
	**(<strike>See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.		**(<strike>See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.</strike>

	=Sourcing=		=Sourcing=

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T22:21:55Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:21, 6 May 2024
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	*This report states 50% of fires can be prevented by AFCI breakers - [https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/ecafci.pdf] - or about 2000 fires per year.		*This report states 50% of fires can be prevented by AFCI breakers - [https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/ecafci.pdf] - or about 2000 fires per year.
	**In 1990-2000 - about 1 person died per day of residential fires in the USA. Property damage of $5M per death, and $640M in property, and more in injury - total of a couple billion.		**In 1990-2000 - about 1 person died per day of residential fires in the USA. Property damage of $5M per death, and $640M in property, and more in injury - total of a couple billion.
			=AFCI Controversy=
	*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/]		*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/]
	**Interestingly, Mike Holt Forum electricians are much against them. There is very little support for their effectiveness in the electrician community. This is 2023, so false trips are reportedly a culprit that leads to replacing such breakers with regular ones.		**Interestingly, Mike Holt Forum electricians are much against them. There is very little support for their effectiveness in the electrician community. This is 2023, so false trips are reportedly a culprit that leads to replacing such breakers with regular ones.

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T10:34:35Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:34, 6 May 2024
Line 13:		Line 13:
	***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.		***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.
	**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]		**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]
	**~~More about arc faults in codes~~ - (https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/arc-fault-option.161977/page-~~2?post_id=2992289&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-2992289)~~		**{{check}}If you start digging deeper - more bogus data on AFCI effectiveness - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/arc-fault-option.161977/page-9]
	**(<strike>See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.		**(<strike>See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T10:32:27Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:32, 6 May 2024
Line 13:		Line 13:
	***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.		***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.
	**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]		**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]
	**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.		**More about arc faults in codes - (https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/arc-fault-option.161977/page-2?post_id=2992289&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-2992289)
			**(<strike>See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.

	=Sourcing=		=Sourcing=

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T10:25:45Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:25, 6 May 2024
Line 14:		Line 14:
	**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]		**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]
	**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.		**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.

			=Sourcing=
			*There are AFCI outlets and breakers

	=Links=		=Links=
	*NEC adoption by year by state - [https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption#:~:text=As%20of%20this%20writing%2C%20in,Nevada.]		*NEC adoption by year by state - [https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption#:~:text=As%20of%20this%20writing%2C%20in,Nevada.]
	*[[St. Joseph]] -		*[[St. Joseph]] -

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T10:05:46Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:05, 6 May 2024
Line 12:		Line 12:
	**One compelling comment - ''I still believe it is too difficult to maintain an arc at 120 volts long enough for it to be much of a fire hazard without additional interaction to keep feeding material into the arc. This is no different than welding with a stick welder - you keep moving closer to the work as the stick gets consumed, if you don't the gap grows too large and the arc goes out. I think possibly the biggest cause of electrical fires in the fixed wiring is failing connections that develop resistance - an AFCI can't differentiate between that or a desired resistance load.		**One compelling comment - ''I still believe it is too difficult to maintain an arc at 120 volts long enough for it to be much of a fire hazard without additional interaction to keep feeding material into the arc. This is no different than welding with a stick welder - you keep moving closer to the work as the stick gets consumed, if you don't the gap grows too large and the arc goes out. I think possibly the biggest cause of electrical fires in the fixed wiring is failing connections that develop resistance - an AFCI can't differentiate between that or a desired resistance load.
	***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.		***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.
			**{{check}}MJ comment - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/afcis-have-they-proven-themselves.2577156/post-2918558]
	**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.		**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T09:50:41Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:50, 6 May 2024
Line 10:		Line 10:
	*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/]		*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/]
	**Interestingly, Mike Holt Forum electricians are much against them. There is very little support for their effectiveness in the electrician community. This is 2023, so false trips are reportedly a culprit that leads to replacing such breakers with regular ones.		**Interestingly, Mike Holt Forum electricians are much against them. There is very little support for their effectiveness in the electrician community. This is 2023, so false trips are reportedly a culprit that leads to replacing such breakers with regular ones.
			**One compelling comment - ''I still believe it is too difficult to maintain an arc at 120 volts long enough for it to be much of a fire hazard without additional interaction to keep feeding material into the arc. This is no different than welding with a stick welder - you keep moving closer to the work as the stick gets consumed, if you don't the gap grows too large and the arc goes out. I think possibly the biggest cause of electrical fires in the fixed wiring is failing connections that develop resistance - an AFCI can't differentiate between that or a desired resistance load.
			***''My other concern (assuming AFCI's are the way to go) is after 30 to 40 years which seems to be the time when you start to find some failures in the install that maybe an AFCI would be beneficial to protect you from - will the electronics in the AFCI still be functioning? We all know that homeowners are well known to go press the test button on a monthly basis on these as well as all their GFCI's.
	**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.		**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T09:47:25Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:47, 6 May 2024
Line 6:		Line 6:
	=AFCI=		=AFCI=
	*https://currentelectricsystems.com/arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-afci-protection/#:~:text=According%20to%20current%20code%2C%20there,Exterior%20Receptacles%20and%20Lighting		*https://currentelectricsystems.com/arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-afci-protection/#:~:text=According%20to%20current%20code%2C%20there,Exterior%20Receptacles%20and%20Lighting
	*50% of fires can be prevented by AFCI breakers - [https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/ecafci.pdf] - or about 2000 fires per year.		*This report states 50% of fires can be prevented by AFCI breakers - [https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/ecafci.pdf] - or about 2000 fires per year.
	**In 1990-2000 - about 1 person died per day of residential fires in the USA. Property damage of $5M per death, and $640M in property, and more in injury - total of a couple billion.		**In 1990-2000 - about 1 person died per day of residential fires in the USA. Property damage of $5M per death, and $640M in property, and more in injury - total of a couple billion.
	*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.		*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/]
			**Interestingly, Mike Holt Forum electricians are much against them. There is very little support for their effectiveness in the electrician community. This is 2023, so false trips are reportedly a culprit that leads to replacing such breakers with regular ones.
			**See also - [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.

	=Links=		=Links=
	*NEC adoption by year by state - [https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption#:~:text=As%20of%20this%20writing%2C%20in,Nevada.]		*NEC adoption by year by state - [https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption#:~:text=As%20of%20this%20writing%2C%20in,Nevada.]
	*[[St. Joseph]] -		*[[St. Joseph]] -

Marcin: /* AFCI */

2024-05-06T09:13:29Z

AFCI

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:13, 6 May 2024
Line 8:		Line 8:
	*50% of fires can be prevented by AFCI breakers - [https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/ecafci.pdf] - or about 2000 fires per year.		*50% of fires can be prevented by AFCI breakers - [https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/ecafci.pdf] - or about 2000 fires per year.
	**In 1990-2000 - about 1 person died per day of residential fires in the USA. Property damage of $5M per death, and $640M in property, and more in injury - total of a couple billion.		**In 1990-2000 - about 1 person died per day of residential fires in the USA. Property damage of $5M per death, and $640M in property, and more in injury - total of a couple billion.
	*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]		*There appears to be significant controversy regarding AFCI breakers [https://www.electriciantalk.com/threads/reminder-that-afcis-are-a-scam.294415/]. And here - [https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads/is-overkill-a-bad-thing-arc-fault-and-ground-fault-where-not-required.124313/] - see Jfletcher.

	=Links=		=Links=
	*NEC adoption by year by state - [https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption#:~:text=As%20of%20this%20writing%2C%20in,Nevada.]		*NEC adoption by year by state - [https://na.bhs1.com/blog/post/state-by-state-guide-to-nec-adoption#:~:text=As%20of%20this%20writing%2C%20in,Nevada.]
	*[[St. Joseph]] -		*[[St. Joseph]] -