Electric vs Liquid Fuel Drive - Revision history

Rasmus at 13:59, 4 March 2011

2011-03-04T13:59:49Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:59, 4 March 2011
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	----		----

	Marcin:		'''Marcin:'''
	''I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.''		''I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.''

Line 22:		Line 22:
	''There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.''		''There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.''

	While biodiesel is not all that difficult to make, having biomass waste as the energy source would reduce the need to grow biodiesel crops and eliminate the need for further processing/glycerol etc.		----
			'''Rasmus:''' While biodiesel is not all that difficult to make, having biomass waste as the energy source would reduce the need to grow biodiesel crops and eliminate the need for further processing/glycerol etc.
	Our ideas yesterday also included a small on-board biomass pyrolysis unit (=wood gas) that powers a small motor+electric generator, reducing the need for a large battery and extensive recharge time.		Our ideas yesterday also included a small on-board biomass pyrolysis unit (=wood gas) that powers a small motor+electric generator, reducing the need for a large battery and extensive recharge time.


	~~''This could be a great plus for the propulsion system. Do you have any leads on such small, on-board units? We'd like to build one as soon as the technical due diligence is developed.''~~

	~~''Marcin''~~

	----		----
	Rasmus' comment ~~about~~ this email, nearly 2 years later: ''I have studied these issues in some more detail, and now think that the development of some kind of '''external''' combustion engine for agriculture is essential. I think that OSE's modern steam engine (in a [[Power_Cube\|PowerCube]]) is very promising. Hydraulic transmission is a natural fit.''		'''Marcin:''' ''This could be a great plus for the propulsion system. Do you have any leads on such small, on-board units? We'd like to build one as soon as the technical due diligence is developed.''
			----
			Rasmus' comment on this email, nearly 2 years later: ''I have studied these issues in some more detail, and now think that the development of some kind of '''external''' combustion engine for agriculture is essential. I think that OSE's modern steam engine (in a [[Power_Cube\|PowerCube]]) is very promising. Hydraulic transmission is a natural fit.''

	==External Links==		==External Links (as of May 2009)==
	*Youtube: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26RdfqGvUE solar converted tractor]		*Youtube: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26RdfqGvUE solar converted tractor]
	*Youtube: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLpGGf7TWs Electric Tractor Test Drive]		*Youtube: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLpGGf7TWs Electric Tractor Test Drive]

Rasmus at 12:26, 4 March 2011

2011-03-04T12:26:40Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:26, 4 March 2011
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			{{Category=Energy}}
			{{Category=Farm_equipment}}


	On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Rasmus <trkiehl@#######.com> wrote:		On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Rasmus <trkiehl@#######.com> wrote:

Rasmus: added comment, categorization; wikified links

2011-03-04T12:25:23Z

added comment, categorization; wikified links

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:25, 4 March 2011
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	On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, ~~Dr. Tim-~~Rasmus ~~Kiehl, M.D.~~ <trkiehl@~~yahoo~~.com> wrote:		On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Rasmus <trkiehl@#######.com> wrote:

	Marcin,		Marcin,

	yesterday, Biochar Ontario held its monthly board meeting on a farm about 100km west of Toronto. It was a wonderful setting and we were able to hammer out a lot of details relevant to our imminent incorporation as a not-for-profit (mission/vision below).		yesterday, [http://biocharontario.ca/ Biochar Ontario] held its monthly board meeting on a farm about 100km west of Toronto. It was a wonderful setting and we were able to hammer out a lot of details relevant to our imminent incorporation as a not-for-profit (mission/vision below).

	I am sure you are aware that fuel for machinery is one of the biggest cost items for the small farmer. Rather than use bio-diesel, why not go electric ? Then, biomass pyrolysis can be used for electricity generation. Flexi-pyrolysis units can make biochar, produce heat and electricity. As much as I appreciate your efforts for LifeTrac, a simple electric tractor seems like a good alternative.		I am sure you are aware that fuel for machinery is one of the biggest cost items for the small farmer. Rather than use bio-diesel, why not go electric ? Then, biomass pyrolysis can be used for electricity generation. Flexi-pyrolysis units can make biochar, produce heat and electricity. As much as I appreciate your efforts for LifeTrac, a simple electric tractor seems like a good alternative.

			----

			Marcin:
	''I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.''		''I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.''

Line 24:		Line 27:
	''Marcin''		''Marcin''

			----
			Rasmus' comment about this email, nearly 2 years later: ''I have studied these issues in some more detail, and now think that the development of some kind of '''external''' combustion engine for agriculture is essential. I think that OSE's modern steam engine (in a [[Power_Cube\|PowerCube]]) is very promising. Hydraulic transmission is a natural fit.''

			==External Links==
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26RdfqGvUE		*Youtube: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26RdfqGvUE solar converted tractor]
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLpGGf7TWs		*Youtube: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLpGGf7TWs Electric Tractor Test Drive]
	http://www.flyingbeet.com/electricg/		*Report: [http://www.flyingbeet.com/electricg/ "Converting an Allis-Chalmers "G" Cultivating Tractor into an Electric Vehicle"]
	http://www.niekampinc.com/electric-g-tractor/		*Niekamp Tool Company: [http://www.niekampinc.com/electric-g-tractor/ Electric “G” Tractor]
	http://www.brookssolar.com/news/electricTractor.html		* [http://www.brookssolar.com/news/electricTractor.html Allis-Chalmers G Electric tractor conversion]

WikiSysop at 12:32, 1 June 2009

2009-06-01T12:32:33Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:32, 1 June 2009
Line 15:		Line 15:
	''There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.''		''There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.''

	While biodiesel is not all that difficult to make, having biomass waste as the energy source would reduce the need to grow biodiesel crops and eliminate the need for further processing/glycerol etc.		While biodiesel is not all that difficult to make, having biomass waste as the energy source would reduce the need to grow biodiesel crops and eliminate the need for further processing/glycerol etc.

	Our ideas yesterday also included a small on-board biomass pyrolysis unit (=wood gas) that powers a small motor+electric generator, reducing the need for a large battery and extensive recharge time.		Our ideas yesterday also included a small on-board biomass pyrolysis unit (=wood gas) that powers a small motor+electric generator, reducing the need for a large battery and extensive recharge time.

WikiSysop at 12:32, 1 June 2009

2009-06-01T12:32:08Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:32, 1 June 2009
Line 7:		Line 7:
	I am sure you are aware that fuel for machinery is one of the biggest cost items for the small farmer. Rather than use bio-diesel, why not go electric ? Then, biomass pyrolysis can be used for electricity generation. Flexi-pyrolysis units can make biochar, produce heat and electricity. As much as I appreciate your efforts for LifeTrac, a simple electric tractor seems like a good alternative.		I am sure you are aware that fuel for machinery is one of the biggest cost items for the small farmer. Rather than use bio-diesel, why not go electric ? Then, biomass pyrolysis can be used for electricity generation. Flexi-pyrolysis units can make biochar, produce heat and electricity. As much as I appreciate your efforts for LifeTrac, a simple electric tractor seems like a good alternative.

	''I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.		''I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.''

	This applies to tractors on the 40 hp range, though smaller ones (10 hp) are much less in parts - as in the link you sent. But note that the tractor shown has a range of about about 4 kWhrs, which is sufficient to run LifeTrac for less than 10 minutes.

	I've driven a converted electric tractor similar to the link. While an exciting show piece, it does not serve our basic needs - unless it were to have a much more sizeable battery - at a costg of $10k for the minimum acceptable range.

	There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.''

			''This applies to tractors on the 40 hp range, though smaller ones (10 hp) are much less in parts - as in the link you sent. But note that the tractor shown has a range of about about 4 kWhrs, which is sufficient to run LifeTrac for less than 10 minutes.''

			''I've driven a converted electric tractor similar to the link. While an exciting show piece, it does not serve our basic needs - unless it were to have a much more sizeable battery - at a costg of $10k for the minimum acceptable range.''

			''There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.''

	While biodiesel is not all that difficult to make, having biomass waste as the energy source would reduce the need to grow biodiesel crops and eliminate the need for further processing/glycerol etc.		While biodiesel is not all that difficult to make, having biomass waste as the energy source would reduce the need to grow biodiesel crops and eliminate the need for further processing/glycerol etc.
Line 23:		Line 20:


	''This could be a great plus for the propulsion system. Do you have any leads on such small, on-board units? We'd like to build one as soon as the technical due diligence is developed.		''This could be a great plus for the propulsion system. Do you have any leads on such small, on-board units? We'd like to build one as soon as the technical due diligence is developed.''

	Marcin''		''Marcin''

WikiSysop at 12:31, 1 June 2009

2009-06-01T12:31:04Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:31, 1 June 2009
Line 1:		Line 1:
	On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Tim-Rasmus Kiehl, M.D. <trkiehl@yahoo.com> wrote:		On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Tim-Rasmus Kiehl, M.D. <trkiehl@yahoo.com> wrote:

	Marcin,		Marcin,

	yesterday, Biochar Ontario held its monthly board meeting on a farm about 100km west of Toronto. It was a wonderful setting and we were able to hammer out a lot of details relevant to our imminent incorporation as a not-for-profit (mission/vision below).		yesterday, Biochar Ontario held its monthly board meeting on a farm about 100km west of Toronto. It was a wonderful setting and we were able to hammer out a lot of details relevant to our imminent incorporation as a not-for-profit (mission/vision below).
	I am sure you are aware that fuel for machinery is one of the biggest cost items for the small farmer. Rather than use bio-diesel, why not go electric ? Then, biomass pyrolysis can be used for electricity generation. Flexi-pyrolysis units can make biochar, produce heat and electricity. As much as I appreciate your efforts for LifeTrac, a simple electric tractor seems like a good alternative.

	''		I am sure you are aware that fuel for machinery is one of the biggest cost items for the small farmer. Rather than use bio-diesel, why not go electric ? Then, biomass pyrolysis can be used for electricity generation. Flexi-pyrolysis units can make biochar, produce heat and electricity. As much as I appreciate your efforts for LifeTrac, a simple electric tractor seems like a good alternative.
	I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.
			''I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.

	This applies to tractors on the 40 hp range, though smaller ones (10 hp) are much less in parts - as in the link you sent. But note that the tractor shown has a range of about about 4 kWhrs, which is sufficient to run LifeTrac for less than 10 minutes.		This applies to tractors on the 40 hp range, though smaller ones (10 hp) are much less in parts - as in the link you sent. But note that the tractor shown has a range of about about 4 kWhrs, which is sufficient to run LifeTrac for less than 10 minutes.
Line 13:		Line 13:
	I've driven a converted electric tractor similar to the link. While an exciting show piece, it does not serve our basic needs - unless it were to have a much more sizeable battery - at a costg of $10k for the minimum acceptable range.		I've driven a converted electric tractor similar to the link. While an exciting show piece, it does not serve our basic needs - unless it were to have a much more sizeable battery - at a costg of $10k for the minimum acceptable range.

	There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.		There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.''
	''

WikiSysop: Created page with 'On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Tim-Rasmus Kiehl, M.D. wrote: Marcin, yesterday, Biochar Ontario held its monthly board meeting on a farm about...'

2009-06-01T12:30:18Z

Created page with 'On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Tim-Rasmus Kiehl, M.D. <trkiehl@yahoo.com> wrote: Marcin, yesterday, Biochar Ontario held its monthly board meeting on a farm about...'

New page

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 1:09 PM, Dr. Tim-Rasmus Kiehl, M.D. <trkiehl@yahoo.com> wrote:

Marcin,

yesterday, Biochar Ontario held its monthly board meeting on a farm about 100km west of Toronto. It was a wonderful setting and we were able to hammer out a lot of details relevant to our imminent incorporation as a not-for-profit (mission/vision below).
I am sure you are aware that fuel for machinery is one of the biggest cost items for the small farmer. Rather than use bio-diesel, why not go electric ? Then, biomass pyrolysis can be used for electricity generation. Flexi-pyrolysis units can make biochar, produce heat and electricity. As much as I appreciate your efforts for LifeTrac, a simple electric tractor seems like a good alternative.

''
I agree, but only if you don't mind the approrimate 10-fold cost increase of going from fuel to electric drive, if you assume 4 wheel drive, and if you don't mind the limited driving range, and if you don't mind the extra inefficiency of charging/discharging batteries instead of using the fuel directly. If these are acceptable to the user, then this should be developed. For our present needs, the 10-fold cost over the existing LifeTrac scheme, and limited range, make the electric option not so attractive. Moreover, one needs to use the existing drive train if one does not use dedicated wheel motors, which makes one susceptible to the failure of transmission - which is why we designed the transmission out of LifeTrac to reduce the maintenance costs. As resources increase, we're open to considering electric in the future - but not without opensourcing wheel motors, controllers, and possibly batteries - without which the electric option remains prohibitively expensive. If you disagree with any of my claims, I'm open to your feedback as well.

This applies to tractors on the 40 hp range, though smaller ones (10 hp) are much less in parts - as in the link you sent. But note that the tractor shown has a range of about about 4 kWhrs, which is sufficient to run LifeTrac for less than 10 minutes.

I've driven a converted electric tractor similar to the link. While an exciting show piece, it does not serve our basic needs - unless it were to have a much more sizeable battery - at a costg of $10k for the minimum acceptable range.

There are serious limitations to electric based on price and range, both of which can be addressed by using open source development. We'll get into this later, as it is a much more difficult problem statement than liquid fuel drive like we're pursuing now. Given that we can get 500 gallons of pyrolysis oil per acre here, that is sufficient to run a closed loop cycle on our fuel needs - and given that this is low-hanging fruit - it's a matter of strategy to develop this first.
''

While biodiesel is not all that difficult to make, having biomass waste as the energy source would reduce the need to grow biodiesel crops and eliminate the need for further processing/glycerol etc.

Our ideas yesterday also included a small on-board biomass pyrolysis unit (=wood gas) that powers a small motor+electric generator, reducing the need for a large battery and extensive recharge time.

''This could be a great plus for the propulsion system. Do you have any leads on such small, on-board units? We'd like to build one as soon as the technical due diligence is developed.

Marcin''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R26RdfqGvUE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLpGGf7TWs
http://www.flyingbeet.com/electricg/
http://www.niekampinc.com/electric-g-tractor/
http://www.brookssolar.com/news/electricTractor.html