Talk:Urine to Urea Chemical Proccesing Pathway - Revision history

Andrewusu at 05:32, 6 February 2020

2020-02-06T05:32:03Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:32, 6 February 2020
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	Irrigation water shouldn't directly touch human edible plant-parts per regulations anyway from my understanding... E. coli contamination and all that (runoff from animal excrement gets into irrigation water).		Irrigation water shouldn't directly touch human edible plant-parts per regulations anyway from my understanding... E. coli contamination and all that (runoff from animal excrement gets into irrigation water).

	This is a great episode, [https://www.history.com/shows/modern-marvels/season-13/episode-19 Modern Marvels: Fertilizer], IIRC it talks about the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution#Production_increases "Green Revolution"], the drastic increase in the "carrying capacity" of the Earth due to improved chemical processes (and etc), and the dependence on limited metals such as platinum, as a catalyst in the Ostwald process. IIRC the platinum catalyst is slowly consumed/lost due to impurities reacting with it. The episode speculates on possible population collapse if platinum runs out. I couldn't find the episode on Youtube again... removed I guess.		This is a great episode, [https://www.history.com/shows/modern-marvels/season-13/episode-19 Modern Marvels: Fertilizer], IIRC it talks about the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution#Production_increases "Green Revolution"], the drastic increase in the "carrying capacity" of the Earth due to improved chemical processes (and etc), and the dependence on limited metals such as platinum, as a catalyst in the Ostwald process. IIRC the platinum catalyst is slowly consumed/lost due to impurities reacting with it. The episode speculates on possible population collapse if/when platinum runs out. I couldn't find the episode on Youtube again... removed I guess.

	You have the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process Haber process]:		You have the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process Haber process]:

Andrewusu: Added link on Cuba + regulation claim

2020-02-06T05:14:49Z

Added link on Cuba + regulation claim

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:14, 6 February 2020
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	<q>The collected urine is then stored for six months, during which the pH and ammonia concentration rise, deactivating pathogens and killing off unwanted organisms.</q>		<q>The collected urine is then stored for six months, during which the pH and ammonia concentration rise, deactivating pathogens and killing off unwanted organisms.</q>

	Irrigation water shouldn't directly touch human edible plant-parts anyway from my understanding... E. coli contamination and all that (runoff from animal excrement gets into irrigation water).		Irrigation water shouldn't directly touch human edible plant-parts per regulations anyway from my understanding... E. coli contamination and all that (runoff from animal excrement gets into irrigation water).

	This is a great episode, [https://www.history.com/shows/modern-marvels/season-13/episode-19 Modern Marvels: Fertilizer], IIRC it talks about the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution#Production_increases "Green Revolution"], the drastic increase in the "carrying capacity" of the Earth due to improved chemical processes (and etc), and the dependence on limited metals such as platinum, as a catalyst in the Ostwald process. IIRC the platinum catalyst is slowly consumed/lost due to impurities reacting with it. The episode speculates on possible population collapse if platinum runs out. I couldn't find the episode on Youtube again... removed I guess.		This is a great episode, [https://www.history.com/shows/modern-marvels/season-13/episode-19 Modern Marvels: Fertilizer], IIRC it talks about the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution#Production_increases "Green Revolution"], the drastic increase in the "carrying capacity" of the Earth due to improved chemical processes (and etc), and the dependence on limited metals such as platinum, as a catalyst in the Ostwald process. IIRC the platinum catalyst is slowly consumed/lost due to impurities reacting with it. The episode speculates on possible population collapse if platinum runs out. I couldn't find the episode on Youtube again... removed I guess.
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	My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted (or problems from the handful of nations with such deposits). You can't pull phosphate out of the atmosphere like you can N2!		My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted (or problems from the handful of nations with such deposits). You can't pull phosphate out of the atmosphere like you can N2!

			Also you may enjoy this read on [https://phys.org/news/2020-01-cuba-cleaner-rivers-greener-farming.html Cuba & their agriculture].

	--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 05:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)		--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 05:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Andrewusu: Clarification

2020-02-06T05:05:26Z

Clarification

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:05, 6 February 2020
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	<q>The Platinum Group Metals (PGMs) have several unique and valuable properties that make them indispensable for many industrial applications. The PGMs are extremely rare and are considered strategic metals or critical metals because they are necessary for many industrial and technological processes but are in short supply and have no adequate alternatives.</q>		<q>The Platinum Group Metals (PGMs) have several unique and valuable properties that make them indispensable for many industrial applications. The PGMs are extremely rare and are considered strategic metals or critical metals because they are necessary for many industrial and technological processes but are in short supply and have no adequate alternatives.</q>

	My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted (or problems from the handful of nations with such deposits)~~, you~~ can't pull phosphate out of the atmosphere~~...~~		My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted (or problems from the handful of nations with such deposits). You can't pull phosphate out of the atmosphere like you can N2!

	--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 05:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)		--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 05:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Andrewusu: Added link

2020-02-06T05:02:55Z

Added link

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:02, 6 February 2020
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	That urine fertilizer reference you found is wonderful! Thank you. Page 25, Table 16 it talks about storing the urine for at least 6 months at 20C to reduce pathogen content. Also, the forum writers seemed credible and wrote down chemical stoichiometry, slow reactions that occur with storage (increase in Urea from ammonia or something... not sure, also pH change). Urine looses its odor with storage and has a deeper color... I use it on my garden after storage.		That urine fertilizer reference you found is wonderful! Thank you. Page 25, Table 16 it talks about storing the urine for at least 6 months at 20C to reduce pathogen content. Also, the forum writers seemed credible and wrote down chemical stoichiometry, slow reactions that occur with storage (increase in Urea from ammonia or something... not sure, also pH change). Urine looses its odor with storage and has a deeper color... I use it on my garden after storage.

	Oh, that Earth Magazine link says this:		Oh, that [https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/p-phosphate-could-urine-solve-fertilizer-shortage Earth Magazine] link says this:
	<q>The collected urine is then stored for six months, during which the pH and ammonia concentration rise, deactivating pathogens and killing off unwanted organisms.</q>		<q>The collected urine is then stored for six months, during which the pH and ammonia concentration rise, deactivating pathogens and killing off unwanted organisms.</q>

Andrewusu: Added quote

2020-02-06T05:02:08Z

Added quote

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:02, 6 February 2020
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	That urine fertilizer reference you found is wonderful! Thank you. Page 25, Table 16 it talks about storing the urine for at least 6 months at 20C to reduce pathogen content. Also, the forum writers seemed credible and wrote down chemical stoichiometry, slow reactions that occur with storage (increase in Urea from ammonia or something... not sure, also pH change). Urine looses its odor with storage and has a deeper color... I use it on my garden after storage.		That urine fertilizer reference you found is wonderful! Thank you. Page 25, Table 16 it talks about storing the urine for at least 6 months at 20C to reduce pathogen content. Also, the forum writers seemed credible and wrote down chemical stoichiometry, slow reactions that occur with storage (increase in Urea from ammonia or something... not sure, also pH change). Urine looses its odor with storage and has a deeper color... I use it on my garden after storage.

			Oh, that Earth Magazine link says this:
			<q>The collected urine is then stored for six months, during which the pH and ammonia concentration rise, deactivating pathogens and killing off unwanted organisms.</q>

	Irrigation water shouldn't directly touch human edible plant-parts anyway from my understanding... E. coli contamination and all that (runoff from animal excrement gets into irrigation water).		Irrigation water shouldn't directly touch human edible plant-parts anyway from my understanding... E. coli contamination and all that (runoff from animal excrement gets into irrigation water).
Line 100:		Line 103:
	My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted (or problems from the handful of nations with such deposits), you can't pull phosphate out of the atmosphere...		My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted (or problems from the handful of nations with such deposits), you can't pull phosphate out of the atmosphere...

	--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 04:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)		--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 05:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Andrewusu at 04:57, 6 February 2020

2020-02-06T04:57:53Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:57, 6 February 2020
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	<q>The Platinum Group Metals (PGMs) have several unique and valuable properties that make them indispensable for many industrial applications. The PGMs are extremely rare and are considered strategic metals or critical metals because they are necessary for many industrial and technological processes but are in short supply and have no adequate alternatives.</q>		<q>The Platinum Group Metals (PGMs) have several unique and valuable properties that make them indispensable for many industrial applications. The PGMs are extremely rare and are considered strategic metals or critical metals because they are necessary for many industrial and technological processes but are in short supply and have no adequate alternatives.</q>

	My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted, you can't pull ~~that~~ out of the atmosphere...		My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted (or problems from the handful of nations with such deposits), you can't pull phosphate out of the atmosphere...

	--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 04:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)		--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 04:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Andrewusu: Response to Eric, on urine & fertilizer

2020-02-06T04:52:08Z

Response to Eric, on urine & fertilizer

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:52, 6 February 2020
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	----		----

			That urine fertilizer reference you found is wonderful! Thank you. Page 25, Table 16 it talks about storing the urine for at least 6 months at 20C to reduce pathogen content. Also, the forum writers seemed credible and wrote down chemical stoichiometry, slow reactions that occur with storage (increase in Urea from ammonia or something... not sure, also pH change). Urine looses its odor with storage and has a deeper color... I use it on my garden after storage.

			Irrigation water shouldn't directly touch human edible plant-parts anyway from my understanding... E. coli contamination and all that (runoff from animal excrement gets into irrigation water).

			This is a great episode, [https://www.history.com/shows/modern-marvels/season-13/episode-19 Modern Marvels: Fertilizer], IIRC it talks about the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution#Production_increases "Green Revolution"], the drastic increase in the "carrying capacity" of the Earth due to improved chemical processes (and etc), and the dependence on limited metals such as platinum, as a catalyst in the Ostwald process. IIRC the platinum catalyst is slowly consumed/lost due to impurities reacting with it. The episode speculates on possible population collapse if platinum runs out. I couldn't find the episode on Youtube again... removed I guess.

			You have the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process Haber process]:
			<q>The process converts atmospheric nitrogen (N2) to ammonia (NH3) by a reaction with hydrogen (H2) using a metal catalyst under high temperatures and pressures</q>

			And the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostwald_process Ostwald process]:
			<q>The Ostwald process is a chemical process used for making nitric acid (HNO3). Wilhelm Ostwald developed the process, and he patented it in 1902.[1][2] The Ostwald process is a mainstay of the modern chemical industry, and it provides the main raw material for the most common type of fertilizer production. Historically and practically, the Ostwald process is closely associated with the Haber process, which provides the requisite raw material, ammonia (NH3).</q>

			A quote from [https://www.thermofisher.com/blog/metals/platinum-group-metals-at-work-industrial-applications/ ThermoFisher]:
			<q>The Platinum Group Metals (PGMs) have several unique and valuable properties that make them indispensable for many industrial applications. The PGMs are extremely rare and are considered strategic metals or critical metals because they are necessary for many industrial and technological processes but are in short supply and have no adequate alternatives.</q>

			My hunch on reading academic findings is that suitable non-platinum catalysts in this context (Ostwald process) have been found, which mitigate the risk of platinum scarcity in this context. But you'll probably see "news" drummed up by speculators in platinum anyway, such as [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-51171391 this]. But there is still the issue of high grade phosphate deposits being depleted, you can't pull that out of the atmosphere...

			--[[User:Andrewusu\|Andrewusu]] ([[User talk:Andrewusu\|talk]]) 04:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Eric: Added some thoughts of mine

2020-01-28T16:04:33Z

Added some thoughts of mine

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:04, 28 January 2020
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	--Andrewusu		--Andrewusu

			----

			Definetly Agree, I was more so jotting down thoughts, for other such as you to see and add thoughts to.



			I heard the first isolation of Phospherous was done by some alchemist dry distilling semi-evaporated urine in an attemt to create the elixir of life.

			Here is the section on this from wikipedia:

			"Discovery

			Robert Boyle
			The discovery of phosphorus, the first element to be discovered that was not known since ancient times,[43] is credited to the German alchemist Hennig Brand in 1669, although other chemists might have discovered phosphorus around the same time.[44] Brand experimented with urine, which contains considerable quantities of dissolved phosphates from normal metabolism.[14] Working in Hamburg, Brand attempted to create the fabled philosopher's stone through the distillation of some salts by evaporating urine, and in the process produced a white material that glowed in the dark and burned brilliantly. It was named phosphorus mirabilis ("miraculous bearer of light").[45]

			Brand's process originally involved letting urine stand for days until it gave off a terrible smell. Then he boiled it down to a paste, heated this paste to a high temperature, and led the vapours through water, where he hoped they would condense to gold. Instead, he obtained a white, waxy substance that glowed in the dark. Brand had discovered phosphorus. We now know that Brand produced ammonium sodium hydrogen phosphate, (NH
			4)NaHPO
			4. While the quantities were essentially correct (it took about 1,100 litres [290 US gal] of urine to make about 60 g of phosphorus), it was unnecessary to allow the urine to rot first. Later scientists discovered that fresh urine yielded the same amount of phosphorus.[27]

			Brand at first tried to keep the method secret,[46] but later sold the recipe for 200 thalers to D. Krafft from Dresden,[14] who could now make it as well, and toured much of Europe with it, including England, where he met with Robert Boyle. The secret that it was made from urine leaked out and first Johann Kunckel (1630–1703) in Sweden (1678) and later Boyle in London (1680) also managed to make phosphorus, possibly with the aid of his assistant, Ambrose Godfrey-Hanckwitz, who later made a business of the manufacture of phosphorus.

			Boyle states that Krafft gave him no information as to the preparation of phosphorus other than that it was derived from "somewhat that belonged to the body of man". This gave Boyle a valuable clue, so that he, too, managed to make phosphorus, and published the method of its manufacture.[14] Later he improved Brand's process by using sand in the reaction (still using urine as base material),

			4 NaPO3 + 2 SiO2 + 10 C → 2 Na2SiO3 + 10 CO + P4 "



			I don't know about phosphate extraction though. I read the article you posted and it seemed to talk about direct use. As you said this works as well (and doesn't have the complexity as well!)



			Pure amonia can be used as a refrigerant. Phosphoric Acid also is useful for some chemistry applications

			GRANTED this is as you said an inneficient method of production (Bone Ash was the first industrial feedstock, then guano, then now phospherous containing mined minerals)



			Finally i found some links on how to use urine as a Direct Use Fertilizer

			http://www.ecosanres.org/pdf_files/ESR2010-1-PracticalGuidanceOnTheUseOfUrineInCropProduction.pdf



			Another note (only for the commercial sector really) is legality/regulations on use. I didn't find TOO much information, but it seems there isn't laws specifically BANNING it's use, but also little discussion outside of sources like those above on how to use it or standards etc.

			Human Solid Waste is processeed and used as "human biosolids" ,but this requires processing and sterilizationj and is thus done almost exlusively large scale by water treatment plants



			Urine isn't sterile, but is near to being so. The first source outlineed the possible pathogens. Possibly pre use heat sterilization?



			I don't know how heat sterilization or time will affect it via degredation of the compounds

			If anything turns to ammonia gas, that vents off

			Time may help lower microbial content however



			Tractor Pulled Liquid Applicators may work for large scale use, however the first souce did reccomend applying low to the ground to prevent possible pathogenic contamination of the leafs etc. (granted the risk is still low and also this was an article catered towards developingh countris most likely without heavily mechanized agriculture). Drip Irrigation would work, but this system often requires lots of plastic. Aquaponics and Hydroponics would be a great direct use case. Perhaps have a direct outlet, a dilute and dump system, or a dosing pump for the aquaponics greenhouse?





			'''All in all''' direct use is more efficient, but may be less conductive to current methods, and needs more research on storage and pathogen control, as well as legality for commercial farming. Chemical Processing is too complex + energy efficient to be useful in most cases, but may be useful in niche use cases, or at large scale wastewater treatment level facitities.

			That was a rant! but thanks for the input, and i will lookj into more research along the future

			--[[User:Eric\|Eric]] ([[User talk:Eric\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

			----

Andrewusu: Created page with "The recovery of phosphate is the most important use of urine in my opinion: https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/p-phosphate-could-urine-solve-fertilizer-shortage Enhancing..."

2020-01-27T21:56:53Z

Created page with "The recovery of phosphate is the most important use of urine in my opinion: https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/p-phosphate-could-urine-solve-fertilizer-shortage Enhancing..."

New page

The recovery of phosphate is the most important use of urine in my opinion:
https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/p-phosphate-could-urine-solve-fertilizer-shortage

Enhancing purity is a wasteful endeavor in this context, just spread it over the field.

I recall reading claims that aging the urine for 6 months is beneficial. Claims that it changes the pH, slow beneficial chemical reactions occur (I don't recall what), and bacteria die out. A suggestion of adding calcium chloride flakes to help the nutrition persist in the soil, to not wash away. I can't find the source of these claims at a glance in my bookmarks, but it was on a forum and I'd hoped to find literature.

--Andrewusu