Thermal Energy Storage Device - Revision history

Eric: Minor Typo Fix

2021-03-27T03:21:43Z

Minor Typo Fix

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:21, 27 March 2021
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	* Paper from NREL [http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/thermal_energy_storage.html]		* Paper from NREL [http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/thermal_energy_storage.html]

	[[Category:Energy]] [[Category: HVAC]]		[[Category: Energy]] [[Category: HVAC]]

Eric: Added a Category to the Page

2021-03-27T03:21:36Z

Added a Category to the Page

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:21, 27 March 2021
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	* Paper from NREL [http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/thermal_energy_storage.html]		* Paper from NREL [http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/thermal_energy_storage.html]

	[[Category:Energy]]		[[Category:Energy]] [[Category: HVAC]]

Abdul Hamdy: /* Response from Tony Sirna */

2015-04-05T21:36:47Z

Response from Tony Sirna

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:36, 5 April 2015
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	Also, don't think efficency is optional because the energy is "free" because it aint free. If you waste energy, that quickly increases the capital cost per watt delivered of the system, which is why I am partial to Zn br now."[[User:Gregortheinventor\|Gregor]] 07:55, 24 June 2011 (PDT)		Also, don't think efficency is optional because the energy is "free" because it aint free. If you waste energy, that quickly increases the capital cost per watt delivered of the system, which is why I am partial to Zn br now."[[User:Gregortheinventor\|Gregor]] 07:55, 24 June 2011 (PDT)


			-Abdul Hamdy's addition- Why not research the reconditioning of Lead Acid batteries, I live in a third world country where they
			are sold for about 5usd each when they are spent.. but I know that they are taken apart and "repaired" then sold second hand to
			poorer people. I am sure in the USA many salvage yards will have many batteries of varying conditions. I remember reading that a
			good percentage of batteries can be reconditioned by charging them in a specific manner. this can be used to build a trove of lead
			batteries which will store power during the day and the lax restriction on number can make for limiting the charge speed in order
			to retain the maximum efficiency of 90%(probably less due to not being new). This is concerning the car Pb battery. there is
			another option which are the deep cycle batteries for trains and forklifts. they are larger which makes the effort per repair much
			more worthwhile. here is a link to a how it's made video clip on youtube that has sparked this idea for me.(no copyright worries as
			the video is posted by the copyright holder) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVJII8lIkZE

	=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=		=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=

Abdul Hamdy: /* Thermal Storage */

2015-04-05T21:36:28Z

Thermal Storage

@@ Line 57: / Line 57: @@
 * Concrete
 * Molten-salt
 ==Hot Water==

Abdul Hamdy at 11:39, 5 April 2015

2015-04-05T11:39:05Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:39, 5 April 2015
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	* Molten-salt		* Molten-salt

	-Abdul Hamdy's addition- Why not research the reconditioning of Lead Acid batteries, I live in a third world country where they are sold for about 5usd each when they are spent.. but I know that they are taken apart and "repaired" then sold second hand to poorer people. I am sure in the USA many salvage yards will have many batteries of varying conditions. I remember reading that a good percentage of batteries can be reconditioned by charging them in a specific manner. this can be used to build a trove of lead batteries which will store power during the day and the lax restriction on number can make for limiting the charge speed in order to retain the maximum efficiency of 90%(probably less due to not being new). This is concerning the car Pb battery. there is another option which are the deep cycle batteries for trains and forklifts. they are larger which makes the effort per repair much more worthwhile. here is a link to a how it's made video clip on youtube that has sparked this idea for me.(no copyright worries as the video is posted by the copyright holder) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVJII8lIkZE
			-Abdul Hamdy's addition- Why not research the reconditioning of Lead Acid batteries, I live in a third world country where they
			are sold for about 5usd each when they are spent.. but I know that they are taken apart and "repaired" then sold second hand to
			poorer people. I am sure in the USA many salvage yards will have many batteries of varying conditions. I remember reading that a
			good percentage of batteries can be reconditioned by charging them in a specific manner. this can be used to build a trove of lead
			batteries which will store power during the day and the lax restriction on number can make for limiting the charge speed in order
			to retain the maximum efficiency of 90%(probably less due to not being new). This is concerning the car Pb battery. there is
			another option which are the deep cycle batteries for trains and forklifts. they are larger which makes the effort per repair much
			more worthwhile. here is a link to a how it's made video clip on youtube that has sparked this idea for me.(no copyright worries as
			the video is posted by the copyright holder) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVJII8lIkZE

	==Hot Water==		==Hot Water==

Abdul Hamdy at 11:37, 5 April 2015

2015-04-05T11:37:01Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:37, 5 April 2015
Line 57:		Line 57:
	* Concrete		* Concrete
	* Molten-salt		* Molten-salt

			-Abdul Hamdy's addition- Why not research the reconditioning of Lead Acid batteries, I live in a third world country where they are sold for about 5usd each when they are spent.. but I know that they are taken apart and "repaired" then sold second hand to poorer people. I am sure in the USA many salvage yards will have many batteries of varying conditions. I remember reading that a good percentage of batteries can be reconditioned by charging them in a specific manner. this can be used to build a trove of lead batteries which will store power during the day and the lax restriction on number can make for limiting the charge speed in order to retain the maximum efficiency of 90%(probably less due to not being new). This is concerning the car Pb battery. there is another option which are the deep cycle batteries for trains and forklifts. they are larger which makes the effort per repair much more worthwhile. here is a link to a how it's made video clip on youtube that has sparked this idea for me.(no copyright worries as the video is posted by the copyright holder) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVJII8lIkZE

	==Hot Water==		==Hot Water==

Griffordson: Fixing link to NREL site

2011-06-24T15:17:22Z

Fixing link to NREL site

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:17, 24 June 2011
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	==Concrete==		==Concrete==

	Papers seem to say that storing heat in concrete may be the cheapest method. Some transfer fluid or gas is pumped through small tubes embedded in concrete. [http://www.nrel.gov/csp/~~trough~~/thermal_energy_storage.html#concrete]		Papers seem to say that storing heat in concrete may be the cheapest method. Some transfer fluid or gas is pumped through small tubes embedded in concrete. [http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/thermal_energy_storage.html#concrete Discussion of Concrete as a Thermal Energy Storage Media on the National Renewable Energy Laboratory site]

	==Molten-salt==		==Molten-salt==

Gregortheinventor: /* Response from Tony Sirna */

2011-06-24T15:05:36Z

Response from Tony Sirna

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:05, 24 June 2011
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	"Lead acid batteries are only about 70% in real life in a photovoltaic system (similar power output curve) due to their 50% or so efficiency at high charge regimes which is where they spend a lot of time. Nife gets about 60-65% apparently over the whole state of charge range. Nife batteries are about $60 peak kWh when the leave the factory to manufacture. Zn Br is only $25 per kWh and about 75- 80%.		"Lead acid batteries are only about 70% in real life in a photovoltaic system (similar power output curve) due to their 50% or so efficiency at high charge regimes which is where they spend a lot of time. Nife gets about 60-65% apparently over the whole state of charge range. Nife batteries are about $60 peak kWh when the leave the factory to manufacture. Zn Br is only $25 per kWh and about 75- 80%.

	Personally I like the idea of a renegerator made of a pebble bed. If you use air as the transfer medium at 1.27 J/(KLitre) and you have a countercurrent heat exchanger to interface to the steam gen with a 10 degree temperature drop (not sure if that would work out but example) you'd need about 1259 liters (1624 grams) per second, 49 cfs or so, so if the flow goes through a cross sectional area of 50 cm by 50 cm (25 sq decimeters) it'd need 5 m/s so 251.625/2= 20 watts for airflow , and the bed can be a regenerator made from gravel. Maybe steam generator coils (narrow and large in number) coudl be embedded in the regen instead to simplify things, instead of using a fan to transfer gas around convection alone might do it?		Personally I like the idea of a renegerator made of a pebble bed. If you use air as the transfer medium at 1.27 J/(KLitre) and you have a countercurrent heat exchanger to interface to the steam gen with a 10 degree temperature drop (not sure if that would work out but example) you'd need about 1259 liters (1624 grams) per second, 49 cfs or so, for 16 kW the p32 outputs so if the flow goes through a cross sectional area of 50 cm by 50 cm (25 sq decimeters) it'd need 5 m/s so 251.625/2= 20 watts for airflow , and the bed can be a regenerator made from gravel. Maybe steam generator coils (narrow and large in number) coudl be embedded in the regen instead to simplify things, instead of using a fan to transfer gas around convection alone might do it?

	Also, don't think efficency is optional because the energy is "free" because it aint free. If you waste energy, that quickly increases the capital cost per watt delivered of the system, which is why I am partial to Zn br now."[[User:Gregortheinventor\|Gregor]] 07:55, 24 June 2011 (PDT)		Also, don't think efficency is optional because the energy is "free" because it aint free. If you waste energy, that quickly increases the capital cost per watt delivered of the system, which is why I am partial to Zn br now."[[User:Gregortheinventor\|Gregor]] 07:55, 24 June 2011 (PDT)

	=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=		=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=

Gregortheinventor at 14:55, 24 June 2011

2011-06-24T14:55:20Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:55, 24 June 2011
Line 40:		Line 40:
	Lead-Acid batteries are about 90% efficient at giving back the energy you put into them. The system described above might be at best 10% efficient (30% * 30%) for the steam engine system. Perhaps if the electricity is coming from some other source, but even still 30% efficiency is not that great.		Lead-Acid batteries are about 90% efficient at giving back the energy you put into them. The system described above might be at best 10% efficient (30% * 30%) for the steam engine system. Perhaps if the electricity is coming from some other source, but even still 30% efficiency is not that great.

			"Lead acid batteries are only about 70% in real life in a photovoltaic system (similar power output curve) due to their 50% or so efficiency at high charge regimes which is where they spend a lot of time. Nife gets about 60-65% apparently over the whole state of charge range. Nife batteries are about $60 peak kWh when the leave the factory to manufacture. Zn Br is only $25 per kWh and about 75- 80%.

			Personally I like the idea of a renegerator made of a pebble bed. If you use air as the transfer medium at 1.27 J/(KLitre) and you have a countercurrent heat exchanger to interface to the steam gen with a 10 degree temperature drop (not sure if that would work out but example) you'd need about 1259 liters (1624 grams) per second, 49 cfs or so, so if the flow goes through a cross sectional area of 50 cm by 50 cm (25 sq decimeters) it'd need 5 m/s so 251.625/2= 20 watts for airflow , and the bed can be a regenerator made from gravel. Maybe steam generator coils (narrow and large in number) coudl be embedded in the regen instead to simplify things, instead of using a fan to transfer gas around convection alone might do it?

			Also, don't think efficency is optional because the energy is "free" because it aint free. If you waste energy, that quickly increases the capital cost per watt delivered of the system, which is why I am partial to Zn br now."[[User:Gregortheinventor\|Gregor]] 07:55, 24 June 2011 (PDT)

	=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=		=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=

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	* Steam Accumulator		* Steam Accumulator
	* Hot vegetable oil - limited to 200C without removing oxygen which causes breakdown		* Hot vegetable oil - limited to 200C without removing oxygen which causes breakdown
	* Mineral Oil and Thermic Fluids - up to 600C		* Mineral Oil and Thermic Fluids - up to 600C (I am pretty sure that is a mistake, it is 600 F not C., about 310 C)
	* Pebble Bed (rock, glass, etc.) and Oil		* Pebble Bed (rock, glass, etc.) and Oil
	* Concrete		* Concrete

Tony S at 13:57, 24 June 2011

2011-06-24T13:57:53Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:57, 24 June 2011
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	[[Image:inductionsaltstorage.jpg]]		[[Image:inductionsaltstorage.jpg]]

			= Response from Tony Sirna =

			I think a molten salt system might be a good choice but I think it will probably be worth using some heat exchanger rather than an induction coil. If the electricity is coming from the steam engine it will have been created from heat at 30% efficiency. I think a heat exchanger could be much more efficient at transferring heat to the storage device, rather than going to electricity first.

			Lead-Acid batteries are about 90% efficient at giving back the energy you put into them. The system described above might be at best 10% efficient (30% * 30%) for the steam engine system. Perhaps if the electricity is coming from some other source, but even still 30% efficiency is not that great.

	=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=		=Input from Tony Sirna of Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage=