Apertus Open Source Camera

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Basics

  • A Company Developing an Open Source Hardware+Software Cinema Camera

Low Cost Version

llo Marcin,

some time ago you asked about the interest of the AxiomTeam to develop a cheap version of the camera. Now i found the post of some ccc guys who are working on it:

latest post here: https://lab.apertus.org/T213

greetings, Christoph

More

See excellent materials on their Indiegogo campaign - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera

Communications

  • [19:23] <marcin___> This is Marcin from Open Source Ecology. Is the current plan to develop a generalized open source camera platform, or only professional grade?
  • [19:24] <marcin___> I am interested in lower quality sensor chips.
  • [19:24] <marcin___> Would lower cost sensor chips be readily retrofittable, or is that a heavy development task?
  • [19:24] <Bertl> well, the current target is kind of professional, but as it all is open and the interfaces are well known
  • [19:25] <Bertl> it should be fairly simple to attach whatever you have sufficient documentation about to the AXIOM (at least on the Beta :)
  • [19:26] <Bertl> we will feature a "low end" sensor (the cmv2000/4000) as well, but I guess you are referring to sensors below 150 USD
  • [19:28] <Bertl> does that answer your question(s)?
  • [20:08] <marcin___> Ok. Have you produced any Open Source Digital Camera Design for Dummies materials? We are big on PhoneBloks style modularity, and we are developing such hypermodular machines in the heavy industry space.
  • [20:09] <Bertl> no big documentation so far, but that will come with the Beta
  • [20:09] <Bertl> most information is on the wiki or "in" the source code right now
  • [20:17] <marcin___> Do you have any Axiom Harware Architecture Design Concept files - showing the modular breakdown and component choices made?
  • [20:19] <Bertl> check out the indiegogo page, it probably still contains the most compact information about the Axiom Beta, although we already changed some things based on feedback
  • [20:19] <Bertl> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/axiom-beta-the-first-open-digital-cinema-camera
  • [20:27] == intracube [~intracube@unaffiliated/intracube] has joined #apertus
  • [20:27] <marcin___> Where could I find your hardware and circuit files?
  • [20:28] <Bertl> either on github or here http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/
  • [20:28] <marcin___> Is the hardware design for the Axiom Beta complete?
  • [20:29] <Bertl> nope, not yet
  • [20:34] <marcin___> Is there a way to order an Axiom Beta at this time? Or that's for later once the Beta ships to the Indiegogo supporters? What price point are you aiming for for the completed camera including fabrication costs?
  • [20:35] <marcin___> Are you Herbert?
  • [20:35] <Bertl> at the moment there is no way to get a Beta, but it will be sold once the Backers got a chance to get their Beta.
  • [20:35] <Bertl> yes, I'm Herbert
  • [20:36] <Bertl> for the price, we will see as the camera will be sold at cost to the backers
  • [20:38] == jucar [~jucar@217.112.96.110] has joined #apertus
  • [20:38] <marcin___> Ok. We'd like to add this to our open hardware tools that we use at Open Source Ecology. Have you seen my TED Talk? http://www.ted.com/talks/marcin_jakubowski?language=en
  • [20:43] <Bertl> now I have. sounds cool!
  • [20:43] <Bertl> but it will take some work to get all documented properly for this purpose
  • [20:44] <Bertl> but it matches our goal that anybody can build and extend the AXIOM
  • [20:45] <marcin___> Can you point me to any decent references on the design of Modular Digital Camera Architectures?
  • [20:46] <marcin___> Is there any other open source digital camera project that you know of?
  • [20:46] <Bertl> not really, as far as I know we are the first one to tackle this
  • [20:46] <Bertl> yes, the elphel project
  • [20:46] <Bertl> and there are other projects focusing on "low end" video
  • [20:57] == jucar [~jucar@217.112.96.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
  • [21:01] == jucar [~jucar@217.112.96.110] has joined #apertus
  • [21:14] <marcin___> Bertl: What is the open source "low end" video project?

Next Day

Jan 12, 2015

  • [14:48] <marcin___> Bertl - no, no issues with CERN license.
  • [14:48] <marcin___> Just details.
  • [14:50] <marcin___> What is the market volume for professional cameras? Is it on the order of 1000 sold per year? Do you have any market data links?
  • [14:52] <marcin___> I wanted to ask if you have considered Efficient Production On the Quantity of One. We specialize in that. For example, we can build our 1 ton brick press in a single day by using volunteers in a weekend immersion workshop. We are doing this for all of our machines. Have you thought about this for Axiom?
  • [14:53] <Bertl> not really yet, although I try to be as efficient as possible when building the Axiom :)
  • [15:01] <se6astian> we can do an assembly party and all visit Bertl on the weekend
  • [15:26] == marcin___ [63c36fda@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.195.111.218] has joined #apertus
  • [15:26] <marcin___> What is the market volume for professional cameras? Is it on the order of 1000 sold per year? Do you have any market data links?
  • [15:26] <Bertl> hozer: like the "lantern"?
  • [15:26] <marcin___> How do I not get booted off IRC if my computer goes dormant?
  • [15:26] <Bertl> marcin___: no idea
  • [15:27] <hozer> aaah, run it from a server?
  • [15:27] <Bertl> marcin___: by using an irc bouncer
  • [15:27] <hozer> I run finch on my server that's running all the time
  • [15:28] == niemand [~niemand@095129206169.cust.akis.net] has joined #apertus
  • [15:28] <Bertl> there is also bip and muh
  • [15:28] <marcin___> bertl - such as ZNC on ubuntu?
  • [15:28] <hozer> or there's this: http://irc.apertus.org/index.php?day=12&month=01&year=2015
  • [15:29] <hozer> (irc log)
  • [15:29] <Bertl> yes, you can also simply read up on the irc logs
  • [15:29] <hozer> well, only if the channel has logs
  • [15:30] <hozer> Bertl: I'm not familiar with the lantern reference
  • [15:31] <Bertl> marcin___: but ZNC won't help if you install it on the computer which goes "dormant"
  • [15:31] <Bertl> hozer: FOSS outernet receiver
  • [15:32] <hozer> znc needs to be run on your server
  • [15:32] <Bertl> or _a_ server :)
  • [15:34] <hozer> so is lantern actually FOSS, or pseudo-OSS cause it makes good marketing
  • [15:34] <marcin___> How many professional cameras are there in the world, guess? 1 Million?
  • [15:35] <hozer> well, I don't think the point is pro cameras, it's the interesting things you can do with a pro-level camera that are not possible with proprietary cameras
  • [15:36] <hozer> like a high-dynamic range welding mask that lets you see the arc and the workpiece
  • [15:37] <marcin___> Ok. Statistics for later. How do I set up an irc log on opensourceecology.org? Install IRC client first, then set up log? I'm not a programmer.
  • [15:37] <hozer> so how many professional TIG welders (people) are there in the world
  • [15:38] <hozer> well 1, create a separate account for irc
  • [15:38] <hozer> 2: sudo apt-get install finch
  • [15:38] <marcin___> Professional welders - about 1 for every 1000 population at least, so I estimate 7 million as a low count.
  • [15:41] <hozer> how many of them would want one of these: http://www.eyetap.org/~siggraph2012/
  • [15:42] <hozer> every farmer I know has at least 2 welders
  • [15:43] <hozer> so I'd say the open, component-based HDR welding camera market is at least 10,000
  • [15:43] <marcin___> If we use Freenode IRC, can I easily create an IRC log from that?
  • [15:43] <marcin___> http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/IRC
  • [15:44] <hozer> what does apertus use for logging?
  • [15:44] <Bertl> a small (yet unpublished) program that I wrote a few years ago
  • [15:45] <Bertl> actually more than a century ago :)
  • [15:45] <hozer> hah
  • [15:45] <hozer> interesting comments: https://www.apertus.org/irc-archives-available-article
  • [15:46] <hozer> marcin___: also have a look at https://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml , which gives some reason why you might *not* want to have irc logs
  • [15:47] <hozer> so maybe keep them for yourself, which is what I sometimes do
  • [15:53] <Bertl> off for a nap ... bbl
  • [15:53] == Bertl has changed nick to Bertl_zZ
  • [15:53] <marcin___> So the main case against IRC logs is that IRC is more of a private discussion where people don't expect their words to be recorded for ever?
  • [15:54] <intracube> se6astian: why are you asking for motion graphics folk?
  • [15:55] <marcin___> What is the critique of TED Talks - I have seen some comments in the log implying their negative side?
  • [15:56] <marcin___> Why did Apertus publish ists IRC logs? Because the temperature here is low?
  • [15:56] <hozer> hrrm, cause irc has a long history of flamewars, and so you tend to write in interactive media for the people interactively participating in the conversation
  • [15:58] <hozer> hrrm. TED talks. Sometimes I feel like the people that give TED talks are better at marketing than doing
  • [15:59] <hozer> I can't actually figure out a coherent critique besides that right now
  • [16:00] <marcin___> What do you suggest for a log of technical development discussions? I've seen forums blow up on this. I was hoping that IRC may contain a valuable 'history.' But maybe some Stack Overflow upvoting mediium must be best for distilling technical discussion? I'm trying to figure that out for OSE.
  • [16:00] <hozer> so I like mailing lists, and IRC
  • [16:01] <hozer> because that's what I'm familiar with, and they both have *standard* protocols and open-source servers
  • [16:01] <hozer> forums are centralized, and I have little choice on how to view the forum
  • [16:02] <hozer> where as email and irc I have several options for the client of my choice. Also think about how do visually impaired people participate in these discussions
  • [16:02] <marcin___> RepRap forums are centralized, for example?
  • [16:03] <hozer> yes
  • [16:03] <hozer> any forum, while it might be open source, how do I get a copy if maintainer running the forum gets pissed off or runs out of money?
  • [16:03] <marcin___> So if you were running the reprap project, you would get rid of forums and go to mailing lists to facilitate technical development?
  • [16:04] <hozer> well
  • [16:05] <hozer> with unlimited budget, I'd contract developers to write a new interface for GNU mailman so it looks like the latest greatest most popular forum
  • [16:05] <hozer> and you can either use the 'integrated' mail client, or, you know, an actual email client ;)
  • [16:06] <hozer> so a forum that uses SMTP and mbox or maildir format as the database backend for posts
  • [16:06] == Hyuri [bd7fd45a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.189.127.212.90] has joined #apertus
  • [16:06] == niemand [~niemand@095129206169.cust.akis.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
  • [16:06] <hozer> with a web-based IRC chatbox that redirects to freenode :)
  • [16:07] <marcin___> With IRC log or not?
  • [16:07] <hozer> hrrm
  • [16:07] <hozer> optional to the end-user
  • [16:07] <hozer> or maybe the channel
  • [16:08] <hozer> I think there's a bit of a social-convention choice.. do you want to be 'off the record', or post public logs
  • [16:08] <marcin___> Is the idea that the Forum format issue of 'maintainer getting pissed off' or 'running out of money' addressed by email lists because everyone keeps copies of the emails in their email client?
  • [16:08] <marcin___> I think public for transparency.
  • [16:09] <marcin___> So have transparency, and maintain temperature low.
  • [16:09] <hozer> yes
  • [16:09] <hozer> to public/transparency.
  • [16:10] <hozer> there are two things with forums: why does it need to be a database when I filesystem of mbox directories works just fine as a database
  • [16:10] <hozer> s/I/the/
  • [16:10] <marcin___> Yes to "Email keeping copies of all discussions in email client" - thus the information content is fully decentralized?
  • [16:11] <hozer> I think with email-based, you have a copy in your own personal archives. No need to contact a server that might be hard to reach
  • [16:12] <hozer> another approach would be to use a bitcoin-like blockchain where all messages are stored in the blockchain, replicated to every full node running the software
  • [16:12] <hozer> and if you did that right and had a currency with it, you could tip the people who made valuable contributions
  • [16:13] <marcin___> Is it true that Bitcoin or its blockchain is inherently unscalable because the blockchain gets too heavy over time?
  • [16:14] <hozer> well, that's an argument against it
  • [16:14] <marcin___> hozer - who are you at https://apertus.org/team
  • [16:14] <marcin___> ?
  • [16:15] <hozer> heh, some random free software advocate ;)
  • [16:15] <hozer> well, free hardware
  • [16:15] <hozer> I am http://www.7el.us
  • [16:16] <hozer> you also might like http://q3u.be/ ... my opinion is that the civilization start kit has to include a piece of hardware that comes with the full design specs to replicate that piece of hardware
  • [16:18] <hozer> the biggest gap I see farming is I can find plenty of tractor/combine/equipment parts, but if John Deere loses the firmware to the engine controller in a 2008 combine, we have a major problem
  • [16:18] <hozer> so at some point I have to be able to fabricate replacement silicon chips on my farm
  • [16:20] <marcin___> Right. GVCS 50 goes up to aluminum smelting from Clay. After that it's semiconductor production. That's part of the package by 2035, but I'm hopinb by 2025 if I can get my shit together.
  • [16:20] <hozer> the big thing you're missing is ability to feed yourselves
  • [16:21] <hozer> I think building smaller 2 or 4 row combine harvesters, threshers, and grain millers is the biggest missing link right now ;)
  • [16:21] <marcin___> Working on it. Mark Shepard is coming September, and we are intending to raise the full CSA operation - I see amazing words on this topic on your site.
  • [16:21] <hozer> Btw, I have 20,000 lbs of tofu soybeans if you want me to send you any
  • [16:22] <marcin___> Part of our work is developing a virally scalable distributed CSA operations. To get market share of honest food above 50% across the globe. Does that interest you?
  • [16:22] <hozer> so maybe we should create #ose
  • [16:23] <hozer> cause this is technically a camera channel
  • [16:23] <hozer> although we need those cameras to get good video of running the CSA
  • [16:23] <marcin___> I think building smaller 2 or 4 row combine harvesters, threshers, and grain millers is the biggest missing link right now ;) - it's in the works, first step is the base traction platform of the Tractor Construction Set. Goal is to develop new implements on 2 week time scale. Modular contract first desiign.
  • [16:24] <hozer> my biggest critique of the OSE project is I'll believe it when you can grow enough food to feed everyone that volunteers there
  • [16:25] <marcin___> Yes, we're spamming the camera channel, but I wanted to ask - is dynamic range suggested in http://www.eyetap.org/~siggraph2012/ possible with the proposed Axion CMOS?
  • [16:25] <hozer> until then I need to work on vision platforms for my antique 8 row combines :)
  • [16:26] <hozer> well, they did say it's open/free hardware, and we are talking about derivative work(s) ;)
  • [16:26] <marcin___> "I'll believe it when ..." point well taken, and I say the same. This year we are beginning on ag, as theh machines are good enough to apply them now.
  • [16:27] <marcin___> hozer - are you an Apertus core developer?
  • [16:27] <marcin___> Is your soybean organic?
  • [16:28] <marcin___> Do you want to move to http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/OSE_IRC or stay here?
  • [16:29] <hozer> let's go to #opensourceecology
  • [16:30] <hozer> no, I am not on the core team
  • [16:31] <hozer> soybeans are conventional, non-gmo, high-protein tofu variety
  • [16:32] <hozer> I just ran across apertus a few days ago and thought it was the coolest free hardware project I had run across in awhile

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