Land Acquisition Log
December 2022 Build Working Doc
Working Land Doc - edit- Maysville Permit
Wed Oct 19, 2022
Due diligence on utilities -
Hi Kim, Thank you. I have a question on the generic permit fee structure, and a question regarding 2 other lots. We are doing detailed cost modeling as we look forward to a number of successful builds with the City. And, we are going through very tight cost control on all the aspects of the build - which is how we can deliver our homes at the highest quality at the lowest possible cost to the customer. Right now we are progressing on one lot donated by St. Joseph, and others bought on the open market. So we can get our foundations in before winter. For the permits - 1. For the build cost in the permit fee schedule doc - is the Valuation (build cost) the all-in cost including land, legal, hookups, labor, materials, utility connections - every single aspect of all-in cost, or just the build part? Do you require any documentation of build cost submitted with the permit fee?2. Is that permit fee inclusive of MEP, or is this ~$1000 fee x 4 (more like $4000) for structural, mechanical, electrical, plumbing each?3. Our house comes stock with 5 kW of photovoltaic (PV) panels for solar energy. We checked with all the electrical contactors ifor St. Joseph and we are having a hard time finding anyone qualified to build our design. We are still looking for a licensed electrical engineer to stamp the PV drawings, so it is taking time. Can we get a variance so that we can proceed on all the permits but without the electrical permit? So that we can get our foundation in. We are aiming for breaking ground mid-November, but we don't know if we will have the stamped electrical engineer's design drawings in time to meet this schedule. Ideally - we proceed on the foundation (before winter) - and then we start the electrical after we pull an electrical permit at the earliest possible date. Do you see other solutions here to address the timing issue?4. If we can't find an electrical engineer locally, can they be from out of state?5. What are the license requirements for the electrical contractor - does it have to be St. Joseph license, MO license, or can it be someone with a license in another state?6. Same for plumber - do they require a St. Joe license, state license, or can it be from another state? We are talking to several contractors, but our choice depends on the license requirement.7. Same for the mechanical contractor. For specific lots - first is a lot at 3855 S. 17th St. 1. We understand that this lot can have a septic system. What is the minimum lot size requirements for houses with a septic system? Or should I talk to Water Protection to find out this info?2. Is the septic permit cost included in the building permits above?3. For the water connection, what does the city charge to connect to municipal water? Or is that included already in the permit fee above? Or is it another company?4. For the electrical connection - I saw one transformer on a pole at the lot, but that transformer runs to a house across the street. Can we tap into this transfermer or do we need to install a new transformer for every house on this lot? We are looking at subdividing this lot for more than one house. 5. What is the typical utility connection fee for power? If I need to call the power company - please let me know the contact information for the power company. For a lot at 1810 Faraon St: 1. Don from Sewers mentioned that the closest sewer is on the corner of 19th st. Is that correct, or is there a sewer line closer to the lot? Is septic allowed on that lot?2. Is a water connection available at the lot?3. I see power poles behind the houses away from the street - can you please verify that power is available at the lot? Do we need a transformer? Is it the same power company as the other lot? Thank you - sorry about all the questions as we are doing a lot of due diligence. If you would like to talk on the phone, please let me know what number I can reach you at. I am at 816.866.3217. Thanks,Marcin
FRi Oct 14, 2022
Steve,
Wed Oct 12, 2022
"Like we have previously discussed, there are no "comps" for the Seed Eco Home, so what you're receiving is simply the properties that have sold in the area. I did try and keep the square footage between 1,000 - 2,000 and the bedroom count to 2 or 3."
Clint -
to Clint
Thank you. What GIS database are you using for the water and sewer lines - is that open access?
Any suggestions on who to contact to verify the boring cost?
Can you comment whether the S 17th lot is actually 2 lots already divided, or able to be divided to build 2 houses?
Marcin
The utility feature is not available to the public on GIS. I would just refer to the list of Contractor names I provided during our meeting as references for this type of work. 17th is one lot that would need to be subdivided to build more than one house.
to Clint
Ok, thank you.
1. Would subdivision be required along the dotted line, or can this be negotiated? Where can I read more about your subdivision guidelines - is that documented somewhere?
2. Is it possible to build two houses now (for our current year-end build campaign), and then subdivide the lot after the houses are built? Or just forget about it for now?
3. Is the process flexible, or is it that after we build the house, we can't divide after house is built?
Just trying to plan if we can do 2 builds on the lot, is that realistic for the current campaign. What would you do in my case given the time is tight?
Clint:
The subdivision process takes approximately 3 months and you would not be allowed to pulling a building permit on the second house until approved.
Did you see my other email about needing info from you to attach to the Agreement?
to Clint
Got it. Just to clarify - If we build one house, we can hold on to to the house without selling it, and pursue a subdivision for the second house - so at the end of the day we end up with 2 houses for sale on the two lots? If we were to do this, can we negotiate the subdivision line location as needed - or is the 'dotted line' in your GIS where the subdivision line must be located?
Thanks for the reminder on the info, I'm responding in the other email. Marcin
Tue Oct 11, 2022
Talked to Jennifer at BTC Bank. Letterhead + signed.
Hi Julie,
- We are interested pending buildability, title, hidden costs (infill, remediation, flood), and comps in the area for financial planning:
- Preliminary: Comps for the area for similar housing, or starter homes in the 1000-2000 sf range
- Contract: Contract is contingent upon discovery of hidden costs that raise construction costs significantly - such as:
- Electrical, water, and sewer connections must be available at the lot without excessive connection costs such as street cut or power line extension, etc
- Impact fees cannot add significant cost
- Soil must be suitable for construction and not requiring excessive fill or replacement of soil, or location in flood plain preventing construction
- Title - clear title
Marcin
Hi Clint,
We are doing due diligence on 2 more lots:
1. 1604 Faraon
Our main concern is ferreting out any hidden costs that can break a successful build. Do you see any issues with the 2 lots? Who do I call for the Power and Sewer/Water? Do you know the approximate connection costs?
The southern tip of the S 17th is in a flood plain. Do you see it as an issue - and is there any way to address this issue? Such as building the house on a higher earthworks pad.
For the S 17th lot - can OSE build 2 houses there? We would go for 1000 square feet and 2000 square feet models. Is that lot already subdivided as implied by the broken line? If we build on one of the lots and there is not enough time to subdivide before December - can the subdivision happen after we build the 2 homes? Can we subdivide in a different way so that the flood plain issue is resolved? Julie at Berkshire Hathaway said I should ask you on this.
We are applying for an ARPA Workforce Training Grant from the MO Department of Economic Development for our apprenticeship. The grant is $4M, and we are interested in replicating our training facility to St. Joseph. Such as starting a training facility - on one of the lots we build in the future. Including augemented reality and modern rapid training infrastructure so our affordable housing spreads countrywide through 300 Tech Schools. We would disseminate our training materials (ie develop all training assets as open source freely available including enterprise models) to tech schools USA wide so we can replicate our program at any collaborating tech school in the USA within 3 years. Would the City be interested in helping us by writing a Letter of Support? I can send you a template. Deadline is October 29.
Thanks,
Marcin
Hi Audrey,
I live in Maysville, and my organization is interested in buying a lot for building an eco-home. The lot is in St. Joseph - and is shown in the attachment.
Marcin
Sun Oct 9, 2022
Regarding an insurance agent, I would start with your current homeowners or automobile insurance agent.
- What is a homeowner's insurance agent lol?
We cannot advise you on what the legal requirements are for insurance for a home seller in Missouri, or if a certain property needs flood insurance. Your insurance agent will need to guide you on both.
- Note: conflict of interest.
If a Buyer purchasing a home has a mortgage, their lender will require they obtain and pay for homeowners’ insurance. Proof of Funds – Unfortunately, a screenshot of the bank account statement will not work. We need a letter from the bank signed by a representative at the bank.
Tuesday will work to submit the offer. I’ve notified the listing agent of this property that an offer will likely be headed her way, but that we are waiting on Proof of Funds. She will keep me in the loop if there is any activity that happens tomorrow.
Sat Oct 8, 2022
The vacant land below is currently listed for sale. If you still had the thought of building 2 homes at one site, these properties might work, all seem to be in good shape. Let me know your thoughts.
- 1 - 1.48 acres - St. Joseph, MO:
http://l.hms.pt/1129/21/2405826/449387/433098/Fu
Listing Notes:
Sellers purchased with intent to build and found a home they wanted to settle into instead. They had checked into adding a modular home on site and joining to city sewer, both possibilities. Per Brandon at City Planning and Zoning, the very south border of the lot is barely in a flood zone and based on what I can see by the aerial map (which is likely off slightly), the flood zone doesn't touch the south border of the lot.
- 2 - 1.7 acres - Savannah, MO:
http://l.hms.pt/1129/21/2395742/449387/433098/Fu
Listing Notes: Utilities are available. City water line main is on the East side of the 14th Street and the city sewer is on the south side of T Hwy. This listing includes 2 lots. Lot #1 is on the corner of 14th Street and T Hwy and is in the city. Lot #2 is on T Hwy and is in the county. There is a total of 1.7 acres that currently is just being out for hay. The farmer keeps the hay for cutting it. Water and sewer are available to the property but does not have the utilities on the property. The property is zoned R-1, Residential.
Julie Hesselmann
Wow, these look great. Do we know for sure that there are 2 lots in each place? Is there a subdivision required?
How does the 3855 S 17th Street, St. Joseph lot compare to the 1032 Mason St lot which was also 2 lots? I'm assuming that you think this is better and you would pick that over Mason Rd immediately, with subdivision-like surroundings and thus a better selling price? A map view shows that 3855 S 17th is a much nicer area - there's a nice bike path there.
What are the comps for the St. Joseph lot and the Savannah Lot?
Right now I would go with the 3855 lot (2 lots) and the 18th St + 1810 Faraon unless Josh's contact comes through with the 18th and Felix. Josh expressed that the Felix lot and the 1810 lot are good options.
2 lots at 3855 S 17th would be great for convenience. With Felix or Faraon, that would meet our needs. So we should do the due diligence such as more detail on utility connection which would be the main costs outside of build costs. Let's put an offer in on the 3855 lot - can you start that process Julie - unless you have other reservations on this lot?
Marcin
Thu Oct 6, 2022
Deed - [1]
Wed Oct 5, 2022
To Clint:
Thank you. Some questions:
1. Costs - Are there any closing and recording fees and who covers them? Are there any liens or other costs that OSE would be expected to pay? Are there any taxes that OSE would be responsible for?
2. Timing of Build - What are St. Joseph's expectation on timing for our build? Right now our structural engineer is 3 weeks late so we still don't have the plans package. The issue is that they insist on standard detail without looking closely at the CAD design file that we submitted to them, so we are going back and forth as they update their generic detail to our specific case. We also called the electricians regarding the PV system, but we did not find one who could do our PV system so we are looking for an electrical engineer right now. However, we are still aiming for 3 builds this November. We are pushing it tight for November, so I wanted to ask what requirements if any you have for our build schedule - will we be signing some other memorandum etc outside of the attached deed that outlines the terms of the land donation? FYI - we expect our main challenge to be gathering the large crew that we typically work with, so one option is building once we have our Apprenticeship running, in which case we have solved the labor issue. We are planning to start the Apprenticeship in March as it stands right now.
3. Contingencies - what happens if the build doesn't work out? Such as - do we hand the land over back to the City, or is there some form of an agreement as above that we will be signing?
4. Collaboration - can you recommend any housing or community groups in St. Joseph or in the local area of 1602 Messanie that we can collaborate with - who would be stakeholders in our work? One ideal scenario is working similar to Habitat for Humanity with local sweat equity and volunteers to keep the build cost down. This way we can provide a better product and it's a win-win for all sides including City, OSE, and the community. While creating a scalable model for which I think OSE is uniquely qualified - because our optimization of build technique for a fast, DIY-style build without significant expert skill requirements. Our goal is involving the public in our work - so when we have professionals on site, we always want to be open to teaching other entrepreneurs and civically-minded people. Can you please bring me up to speed on any initiatives that already exist in St. Joseph that we can connect to? My number is 816.866.3217 if you'd like to talk on the phone.
Thanks,
Marcin
Sat Sep 24, 2022
To Clint, head of Planning and Community Development, St. Joseph MO. I'd like to confirm our interest. My advisor named Steve, who is a seasoned entrepreneur loves the idea of proving the case of affordable housing in collaboration with city officials, where the cost stucture involves free land and some volunteer labor. While remaining replicable. I love the transformative potential. It won't be easy. Berkshire Hathaway contacts + local church group representative mentioned the issue of crime or undesirable tenants. My partner implied similarity to a Habitat for Humanity build somewhere in Africa where the project turned into a whorehouse. Do you have any thoughts on addressing this issue for the Messanie lot? Do you see this as an issue? Are there other community orgs in the area which we can enlist to help out? My ideal end state would be building a chapter of OSE in the neighborhood, training local stakeholders as students and partners in house-building operations. I mentioned we are starting an Apprenticeship - once proven, it could expand to St. Joseph. Because this now gets not into solving housing, but solving poverty as well. Did you get a chance to look at my 4 minute TED Talk? Marcin
Thu Sep 22, 2022
Jon Kalish - from Marcin - It's a reference to 'mutually assured destruction,' which is society's current doctrine for preventing nuclear annihilation. OSE believes that a better doctrine for survival is to assure that everyone's needs are met. That is the biggest guarantee of peace. More at https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Mutually_Assured_Abundance
I see mention on the OSE web site that the modular 1000 SF eco-home can be built by two people in a week for $50k. Have people been building them? Do you sell kits? What about the compressed earth brick press? Are people buying them for $10,000?
We are proving the model of building houses, turnkey on the open market, from 1000 SF to 2000 SF at anywhere between $80k-$250k. This can scale to solving housing. We are building 3 Seed Eco-Homes this November-December in our area to prove this. CEB is much harder, and we expect a product release of the CEB version - at the same or lower price point - next year.
We found also that that nobody wants to build their own house. The kit route is still in, but we expect the market for that to be around 2% of the population. We will offer kits next year, too. Yes, you can still build your own house from off-the-shelf building materials at the cost of materials. Our cost of materials now is $58k including 5kW of PV - one of our features is that PV comes stock with every house built. Not like Sears homes, which were not designed for a modular/easy build like we designed. The week/2 people assumes that you have built all the modules ahead of time on weekends etc. It's still completely realistic, though. We initially thought our main market would be DIY people. We pivoted to turnkey house builds for clients and spec housing. This is our 'girl scout cookies' model of cross-subsidizing the revolution.
You may be interested in doing a story on this once we prove the financial model of turnkey builds. We are aiming for distributed market substitution, ie, a proof of concept that open hardware can scale better than even software unicorns. Check out https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Distributed_Market_Substitution.
MJ
From Brent: 816.262.8266 Jon Mapa -Filipino Architect : but lives local (Savannah,MO I believe). This contact from my buddy. He said he had a card to prove he was an architect. He’s young and foreign and might want to help or work on the rendering of the 2000 squ ft option. Or future iterations. Auto Cade for flat drawings. Sketch up for 3D. Lumion for rendering and then photoshop.
Steve,
The city looks like they can deliver the free lot. The free lot is ghetto with $83k surrounding average of 18 house sales over the last year at 103 year average house age. BHHS says don't do it. Catarina loves this route (after I explained how we will explain OSE charging a build fee if we get free labor). I say go for it if we collaborate: one scenario in my modeling shows a $84k sustainable sale price ($17k OSE service fee) - of course if there are some free things like labor.
Take a look at columns C-E at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UioEvjS8wkFZcrV8PwtVGrClyEiJA7zSKXNEeKEi7qw/edit#gid=619760795
But I think an amazing case can be made for free labor. (And the paid labor route as- even - with the Paid Crash Course route as we refine this program). Buy-in from city is high, the realtors and Brent have church connections and they see high potential of community buy-in.
Imagine the potential of $84k market price, $17k OSE fee - and a high quality 1000 sf house with carport and 5kW PV! Insanely appealing.
Are you similarly optimistic? I imagine that if the support is high like it appears here, we could be doing 17 lots (the number I heard in passing from Clint the Planning Dept head) like this next year in our mix. The low-income house route would net $289k by itself - this presents a clear affordable housing route that is financially self-sustaining. It seems that St. Joe is unique in this opportunity, but not necessarily - as Kansas City has 2000 lots in the KC Land Bank. It seems that the labor is the biggest question. Given the public support, it seems that this can grow readily into a movement and the free labor could likely scale - easily - to 12-24 houses like this per year.
We would have minimum viable model prices of $145k, $192k, and $80k - in the 1000, 2000, and free land cases - respectively. I heard you say that we want to show better results - but that is highly likely in my view as we have a new house and not a 100 year old house.
I agree with all of your feedback. Julie, can you explain the significance of 'only one house built on a slab'? Christian, who is CAP?
CAP, is Community Action Partnership. It’s a local non-profit that aids in services to help poverty.
I must also add new insights on formerly redlined lots. I updated the numbers that I wanted to share with you so you can verify my assumptions. There is indeed an assumption that would allow us to sell a build on the Messanie lot. But we can't do it ourselves. The City would contribute land. Local groups would have to contribute volunteer labor. It is stone soup: if we want to do it, let's get a bunch of church groups to help - while building social capital, collaborating with a very supportive Clint and James from the Planning Department - and culminating in scaling the model while building another OSE campus (tech school and more) in one of our developments so we build local wealth and rebalance the ugly history of redlining. For perspective - I would see 3 distinct revenue models proved as the ideal case of 3 builds: 1000 sf, 2000 sf, and donated lot. All feature the 5kW hybrid PV system as a stock feature. All with carport. Required sustainable sale price - meaning OSE could do this as a successful business - are $140k, $190k, and $80k according to my modeling (those are acceptable minimums with which I would be happy, these would not be ideal sale prices from the perspective of allowing us to grow faster). That is correct - we can run a business and do $80k 1000 sf homes. Here are the assumptions - see the first 3 cases (column C-E) explaining the $140, $190, $80 k. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UioEvjS8wkFZcrV8PwtVGrClyEiJA7zSKXNEeKEi7qw/edit#gid=619760795
To clarify: material costs from $60-90k, labor costs from $0-$35k. I don't question the feasibility of the regular build model (1&2), but the question for the charitable model is simply can we get the community buy-in from local service organizations? The publicity and ethical value there is immense.
Note that OSE gets paid. This is a sustainable business model with a 25% service fee from OSE - which would be called 'profit' in for-profit enterprises. In other words - we can run a business doing this - it's not a one-off that does not contribute much to denting the housing issue. I think the narrative there must explain how we justify 'getting paid while others are putting in free labor' by those hippies who do not understand that a business must make more money than it spends. "We build a house at a significantly lower cost and higher quality than anyone else - including eco PV - and charge an industry standard 25% service fee so that we can grow run this as a core part of our enterprise - and scale this so we can solve housing for those in need. I don't think this gets any better than that - remember that our current labor strategy and cost structure reflects the possibility of highly successful enterprise that engages the community, solves real needs, and covers its costs so that it can grow this operation and truly solve housing."
Further, as a reality check for lowering material costs down the road to $30k. That will help, and will produce out of the ballpark results. That will take $2M in funding (20 full time engineers for 1 year) in the ideal case. But the good news - if we gather the community around the housing issue - we can do it right now. Is free labor as such not sustainable? I think it's doable for up to perhaps 50 homes or so per year in the St. Joseph area. Basically, similar to the level of Habitat for Humanity, though I think we can actually do much better because of our rapid swarm construction schedule. The limit will indeed be labor - but we are explicitly optimizing our model for labor requirements.
How many new homes are built in St. Joseph annually?How many of these do we think we could build as the standard 1000, 2000 sf?And how many of the $80k homes could we get the free labor for annually? Potential is huge. Let's build 1000 sf, 2000sf, and a free lot. What do you think?
MJ
> Open Source Manufacturing: An Affordable Housing Solution That Is Also a Job Program : Thanks for your contributions. There was a dream called open source hardware. It shall be realized.
The full CAD file submitted for structural engineering is https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Seed_Eco-Home_4_3D_CAD#Master_Files - including open standard IFC format for Building Information Modeling.
We are planning for 3 builds in November - December. Currently it looks like one will be a minimalist house, with donated land and labor, at 1000 sf and a $80k sale price. Another would be the Seed Eco-Home standard - 1000 sf and $140k sustainble selling price. The third would be a 2000 sf expanded version at a $192k sustainable selling price - delivering the promise of Incremental Housing: building half a good house (1000 sf) and expand as family, resources, and needs grow. All these 3 come stock with a 5kW hybrid PV system - as a stock feature delivering the eco and $1k lower utility bills for ever. (note that prices will be highly dependent on the specifics of the situation, and will range from $80k to $350k for 1000-3000 sf homes in scenarios ranging from ghetto to subdivisions with HOAs).
These are all intended to be proofs of concept of a robust economic model. Delivery at scale depends on the success of our apprenticeship programs.
Thu Sep 22, 2022
Jon Kalish - from Marcin - It's a reference to 'mutually assured destruction,' which is society's current doctrine for preventing nuclear annihilation. OSE believes that a better doctrine for survival is to assure that everyone's needs are met. That is the biggest guarantee of peace. More at https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Mutually_Assured_Abundance
I see mention on the OSE web site that the modular 1000 SF eco-home can be built by two people in a week for $50k. Have people been building them? Do you sell kits? What about the compressed earth brick press? Are people buying them for $10,000?
We are proving the model of building houses, turnkey on the open market, from 1000 SF to 2000 SF at anywhere between $80k-$250k. This can scale to solving housing. We are building 3 Seed Eco-Homes this November-December in our area to prove this. CEB is much harder, and we expect a product release of the CEB version - at the same or lower price point - next year.
We found also that that nobody wants to build their own house. The kit route is still in, but we expect the market for that to be around 2% of the population. We will offer kits next year, too. Yes, you can still build your own house from off-the-shelf building materials at the cost of materials. Our cost of materials now is $58k including 5kW of PV - one of our features is that PV comes stock with every house built. Not like Sears homes, which were not designed for a modular/easy build like we designed. The week/2 people assumes that you have built all the modules ahead of time on weekends etc. It's still completely realistic, though. We initially thought our main market would be DIY people. We pivoted to turnkey house builds for clients and spec housing. This is our 'girl scout cookies' model of cross-subsidizing the revolution.
You may be interested in doing a story on this once we prove the financial model of turnkey builds. We are aiming for distributed market substitution, ie, a proof of concept that open hardware can scale better than even software unicorns. Check out https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Distributed_Market_Substitution.
MJ
From Brent: 816.262.8266 Jon Mapa -Filipino Architect : but lives local (Savannah,MO I believe). This contact from my buddy. He said he had a card to prove he was an architect. He’s young and foreign and might want to help or work on the rendering of the 2000 squ ft option. Or future iterations. Auto Cade for flat drawings. Sketch up for 3D. Lumion for rendering and then photoshop.
Steve,
The city looks like they can deliver the free lot. The free lot is ghetto with $83k surrounding average of 18 house sales over the last year at 103 year average house age. BHHS says don't do it. Catarina loves this route (after I explained how we will explain OSE charging a build fee if we get free labor). I say go for it if we collaborate: one scenario in my modeling shows a $84k sustainable sale price ($17k OSE service fee) - of course if there are some free things like labor.
Take a look at columns C-E at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UioEvjS8wkFZcrV8PwtVGrClyEiJA7zSKXNEeKEi7qw/edit#gid=619760795
But I think an amazing case can be made for free labor. (And the paid labor route as- even - with the Paid Crash Course route as we refine this program). Buy-in from city is high, the realtors and Brent have church connections and they see high potential of community buy-in.
Imagine the potential of $84k market price, $17k OSE fee - and a high quality 1000 sf house with carport and 5kW PV! Insanely appealing.
Are you similarly optimistic? I imagine that if the support is high like it appears here, we could be doing 17 lots (the number I heard in passing from Clint the Planning Dept head) like this next year in our mix. The low-income house route would net $289k by itself - this presents a clear affordable housing route that is financially self-sustaining. It seems that St. Joe is unique in this opportunity, but not necessarily - as Kansas City has 2000 lots in the KC Land Bank. It seems that the labor is the biggest question. Given the public support, it seems that this can grow readily into a movement and the free labor could likely scale - easily - to 12-24 houses like this per year.
We would have minimum viable model prices of $145k, $192k, and $80k - in the 1000, 2000, and free land cases - respectively. I heard you say that we want to show better results - but that is highly likely in my view as we have a new house and not a 100 year old house.
I agree with all of your feedback. Julie, can you explain the significance of 'only one house built on a slab'? Christian, who is CAP?
CAP, is Community Action Partnership. It’s a local non-profit that aids in services to help poverty.
I must also add new insights on formerly redlined lots. I updated the numbers that I wanted to share with you so you can verify my assumptions. There is indeed an assumption that would allow us to sell a build on the Messanie lot. But we can't do it ourselves. The City would contribute land. Local groups would have to contribute volunteer labor. It is stone soup: if we want to do it, let's get a bunch of church groups to help - while building social capital, collaborating with a very supportive Clint and James from the Planning Department - and culminating in scaling the model while building another OSE campus (tech school and more) in one of our developments so we build local wealth and rebalance the ugly history of redlining. For perspective - I would see 3 distinct revenue models proved as the ideal case of 3 builds: 1000 sf, 2000 sf, and donated lot. All feature the 5kW hybrid PV system as a stock feature. All with carport. Required sustainable sale price - meaning OSE could do this as a successful business - are $140k, $190k, and $80k according to my modeling (those are acceptable minimums with which I would be happy, these would not be ideal sale prices from the perspective of allowing us to grow faster). That is correct - we can run a business and do $80k 1000 sf homes. Here are the assumptions - see the first 3 cases (column C-E) explaining the $140, $190, $80 k. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UioEvjS8wkFZcrV8PwtVGrClyEiJA7zSKXNEeKEi7qw/edit#gid=619760795
To clarify: material costs from $60-90k, labor costs from $0-$35k. I don't question the feasibility of the regular build model (1&2), but the question for the charitable model is simply can we get the community buy-in from local service organizations? The publicity and ethical value there is immense.
Note that OSE gets paid. This is a sustainable business model with a 25% service fee from OSE - which would be called 'profit' in for-profit enterprises. In other words - we can run a business doing this - it's not a one-off that does not contribute much to denting the housing issue. I think the narrative there must explain how we justify 'getting paid while others are putting in free labor' by those hippies who do not understand that a business must make more money than it spends. "We build a house at a significantly lower cost and higher quality than anyone else - including eco PV - and charge an industry standard 25% service fee so that we can grow run this as a core part of our enterprise - and scale this so we can solve housing for those in need. I don't think this gets any better than that - remember that our current labor strategy and cost structure reflects the possibility of highly successful enterprise that engages the community, solves real needs, and covers its costs so that it can grow this operation and truly solve housing."
Further, as a reality check for lowering material costs down the road to $30k. That will help, and will produce out of the ballpark results. That will take $2M in funding (20 full time engineers for 1 year) in the ideal case. But the good news - if we gather the community around the housing issue - we can do it right now. Is free labor as such not sustainable? I think it's doable for up to perhaps 50 homes or so per year in the St. Joseph area. Basically, similar to the level of Habitat for Humanity, though I think we can actually do much better because of our rapid swarm construction schedule. The limit will indeed be labor - but we are explicitly optimizing our model for labor requirements.
How many new homes are built in St. Joseph annually?How many of these do we think we could build as the standard 1000, 2000 sf?And how many of the $80k homes could we get the free labor for annually? Potential is huge. Let's build 1000 sf, 2000sf, and a free lot. What do you think?
MJ
> Open Source Manufacturing: An Affordable Housing Solution That Is Also a Job Program : Thanks for your contributions. There was a dream called open source hardware. It shall be realized.
The full CAD file submitted for structural engineering is https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Seed_Eco-Home_4_3D_CAD#Master_Files - including open standard IFC format for Building Information Modeling.
We are planning for 3 builds in November - December. Currently it looks like one will be a minimalist house, with donated land and labor, at 1000 sf and a $80k sale price. Another would be the Seed Eco-Home standard - 1000 sf and $140k sustainble selling price. The third would be a 2000 sf expanded version at a $192k sustainable selling price - delivering the promise of Incremental Housing: building half a good house (1000 sf) and expand as family, resources, and needs grow. All these 3 come stock with a 5kW hybrid PV system - as a stock feature delivering the eco and $1k lower utility bills for ever. (note that prices will be highly dependent on the specifics of the situation, and will range from $80k to $350k for 1000-3000 sf homes in scenarios ranging from ghetto to subdivisions with HOAs).
These are all intended to be proofs of concept of a robust economic model. Delivery at scale depends on the success of our apprenticeship programs.
Wed Sep 21, 2022
Today:
Today's update: I studied the numbers, and I think that 12 experienced builders can finish the build in 5 days, and we should focus on setting up the conditions for this.
Ideal scenario: 3 lots next to each other with 3 test scenarios. Test the professional model at 1000 and 2000 sf, recruiting 30 professionals for this assuming the 2000 sf will take 50% more time. Do a third of 1000 sf on the third lot, open to the public, hiring 4 good instructors, and having paying customers for an affordable housing product. 3 deliberate test points in one package.
Yesterday:
to Steve, Catarina
To follow up on your comment that we want to show the model works even in the case of expensive labor ($50*1000) -
Your rationale was so that anyone can go successfully through the startup phase. Somehow we need to build in a mechanism for more robust survivability through the startup phase (main challenge remains labor).
We need to ask what does a startup scenario look like? I thought our model was that we can teach someone to go solo, build 4 houses per year - and make $100-200k/year in an entrepreneurial builder route. In this case, 'survivability through startup' by allowing for expensive labor does not apply. We can assume that we trained a person to build, and they leave with a full skill set necessary to execute a build.
My first question is therefore - are we still expecting that scalability of this model occurs through large numbers of people doing the above solopreneurship route? Or is it organizations like us, replicated widely - that build from 50 to hundreds of houses per year? We can't tell without trying. It seems the solopreneur route is highly replicable as any builder now gets a much larger and much more valuable skill set. However, the learning curve may be high, and this may not scale as well as we think. It seems to me right now that the 50-100s scale business has the larger potential of solving housing.
But this point aside - let's consider another solution: a swarm build, by very expensive labor, infilled with people who are paying for the experience - as a partnership with the city providing free land.
6 experienced builders, each leads a crew of 4 novices. A team of 30 total. Pay $6k for the pro for 5 days. Novices pay $1000 for a 5 day Builder Crash Course - last year we had 24 participants in the Builder Crash Course - the market is likely there for this as a one-time startup phase for anyone trying to prove the model. Net labor cost: $12k for the build of a 1000 sf house. The economics are $125k sales price of the house, OSE makes $25k profit. And we can market this heavily under 'affordable housing' work. Getting 6 experienced leaders to show up is probably very doable. Getting 24 people to show up at $1k for a Crash Course seems quite doable
Anyway, the takeaway question - how much effort should we put into the Swarm Build route with paying novices? Does that add or detract from the city partnership with free land? ...
Tue, Sep 20, 6:22 PM (16 hours ago)
to Steve, Catarina
Correction - the above sale price is $109k in this specific scenario, OSE charges $25k 'profit'. ...
Catarina Sez:
Participating in a 5-day build is very different from a 5-day builder crash course. A course implies a curriculum, dedicated teachers, time to learn, try things, ask questions. Basically anyone who pays $1k for a course expects the event to be entirely centered on their learning experience. That is not what would happen in a 5-day build. This approach will cause a major mismatch between people's expectations (particularly considering that $1k is a lot of money) and what they'd actually get. Many would probably walk away pissed and ask for a refund. Others, since they would be ones paying to work rather than being paid to work, would not feel compelled to show up on time, work hard, finish their tasks, do quality work, etc. All of this would make for a bad experience not just for them, but also for everyone else: we'd be short of people (since at least some would leave), with many tasks half done or badly done, we'd have to deal with the drama of angry people and issue refunds, and the spectacle would be demoralizing for everyone else. The only way this model could work would be with an extended build (double the time at least, so 10 days) in which 50% of the time would be spent teaching people in a workshop or classroom, and the other 50% building. ...
Correction: I think we'd need to triple the length of the build. 5 days is how long it would take to build Rosebud with a crew of hard-working, well paid, highly skilled workers. Then add another 5 days which would be entirely dedicated to classroom time for the crash course participants (half a day). Then add another 5 days to make up for: mistakes made by inexperienced builders, low quality work (that needs to be corrected), plus the fact that (at best) only about 20% of the course participants would be working full time (the rest would be in and out, socializing, goofing off, etc - and they wouldn't be wrong since they are paying for this experience). To top it off, we'd have to pay instructors for the class time (non build time), we'd be responsible for the logistics of housing and feeding all course participants (if we tell them to find food and accommodation on their own they'd probably be absent from the build most of the time), and we'd need to hire someone babysit them (a community manager). I highly recommend staying away from free labor at this stage - and definitely staying away from paying participants. To really move forward and finally move this projecto to the next level, we need professionals to run a professional operation and unpaid or paying participants are the opposite. Running a really tight build orchestrated to the last detail and running a course at the same time - are just not compatible right now. Let's leave the courses for the second phase of the project (after we've honed this build to perfection).
Tue Sep 20, 2022
Hi Clint,
Thank you, great to meet you today.
The lot you show, donated for affordable housing is definitely interesting and we would like to pursue this avenue full steam ahead. Developing a model for working with city governments to address affordable housing is a high priority for us in addition to the open market. We are interested in 3 lots total for November - the donated lot could be one of them. As you mentioned, the timing may be tight for November - but we could definitely consider this as long as we can build through December. Can you please pursue this with the city? Are there other lots that are available as well? We could do a pilot, and if it works out, we could do more. What would you estimate is the likelihood of actually securing the lot by mid-November?
I forgot to explain why we call our house the Seed Eco-Home. One of its core features is that it has several design features that allow for expansion - as 'incremental housing' - where the home can grow with a family as the family and its resources grow. The 1000 sf version is a small home that can be expanded as needed. We pre-frame 2 door apertures - for ready expansion to the back. All the windows are framed so they can turn into doors if additional rooms are built. And the flat roof can easily be taken off to expand vertically. We think that is a huge value proposition - because as I mentioned - our sale price for a turnkey build that includes our service fee at 1000 sf is $149k - and at 2000 sf it is $192k or only about 30% more cost for 100% more size.
One more thing - we are actually an education organization - so we combine work-force training and solving pressing world issues. Please take a look at my 4 minute TED Talk on the Global Village Construction Set for the greater framework of what we are about if you haven't seen it already. The way we think about it - we would like to bootstrap fund our work with product sales so we can cross-subsidize further R&D - while making our revenue model replicable for anyone else wanting to collaborate in further development. For example, on the house, our goal is taking the $60k materials cost down to $30k by using compressed earth blocks and 3D printed parts. The wall modules are to be 3D printed using waste plastic turned into 3D printing filament. That's the kind of R&D that we are pursuing, to lower costs and improve quality. We make all of our technology, and business models, patent free and available for replication as a mission-driven enterprise.
Thanks, Marcin
Brent's economic analysis from yesterday:
Marcin,
I don’t disagree with your analysis that this isn’t a trend following product (the 1k squ ft Rosebud). It presses against the cultural stream. But I see more potential in your vision Marcin as a trend setter not a follower.
This is my honest first thoughts so don't take them as solidified in concrete by any means, but I feel a sort of tension with this project between the open source/ social impact/ change housing parts of the mission and the entrepreneurial / business growth. By tension I just simply mean they feel at odds. Directionally they may take you on different paths. I could be wrong here. But that is just my gut feeling.
So I would say 2k sq ft home that is 4bd 2bath is definitely more marketable and attractive to the Midwest regional buyer. My family for instance. I have doubts about the lower cost / affordability part. Even with pinching your estimates on cost to build, at 125k to build the first 1000 squ ft and maybe it only costs 100k for the additional 1000 squ ft. You’d likely have to sell around 265k to make the desired margin.
For the prospective buyer $265,000 would look like. -5% cash down. =$13,250 -Loan of $251,650 @ 6.5% interest -monthly obligation (principle+interest)=$1,592 -on top of $1,600 per month requirement there is escrowed taxes and insurance will be something like $365 monthly -plus private mortgage insurance say another $60 per month
Grand total the perspective buyer of the 4bed 2 bath is looking at : $2,017 per month in just home loan.
(I only took seconds to estimate so these are rough but likely within range). (The numbers change determined by the percentage of cash down the buyers can or are willing to spend. Say a family of 6 like us have lived someone and gained equity over the last ten years and can put down $50k on the home so their home mortgage loan wouldn’t be as high thus making their monthly loan payments lower and taking away the private mortgage insurance if they get the loan under 80% of the homes value.)
Then after $2,017, you can imagine monthly utilities costs, and cost of living items groceries etc…that doesn’t work for a lot of the struggling income homes or single earning homes.
On a $150k home. Buyer numbers look like - $7,500 down -$1,145 (principle+interest+insurance+taxes+PMI), which say two people combining for $50,000 in gross yearly earnings could swing. That puts their mortgage payment only at 32% of income and the rest can go towards family living. Which is a desirable range.
The coordination of a bigger build with 24 people doubling the sq ft seems like an undertaking to say the least. And likely more days than 5 I would imagine. Let alone the design/CAD/ instructions changes that will have to inevitably be changed quickly. All that causes me to pause on the push to build bigger.
But I don’t doubt a 4bd 2 bath would sell. It would. If you could get the purchase price to $175k range for 4bd 2bath…then I’d say man that could be marketable as “affordable” or “lower cost”. That would be like flies on manure in this market LOL.
—just my thoughts this morning for what it’s worth
Mon Sep 19, 2022
PDF of $140k average sale price of 100 year old 1000 sf homes. File:Stjoseph sold.pdf
I reworked the model after doing a final budget (current prices) and other insights.
The realtor provided 'comps' - but told me that nobody builds houses like ours so they appear to have no clue to the selling price in St. Joseph. The data points are: 8 houses sold over the last year in the 1000-1200 sf range at an average sale price of $140k. Average age of the house was 100 years. See attached PDF.
Conclusions: nobody builds 1000 sf homes. It appears that the market for them is 1/6 of the market - only those families without children. The feedback from the realtors was that the market is simply smaller. Practical consideration: a longer time to sell if 1/6 the customers are available?
2000 sf is more attractive to people. See attachment for a picture of the 2000 SF Rosebud with expansion in back - cost of $85k in materials.
Now look at materials costs:
- 1000 sf - $58k with carport and PV, $54k without carport and with 5 kW PV. Estimated labor - $24.6k
- 2000 sf - $85k as in picture- with 6 kW PV. Estimated labor - $35.3k
For a $20k lot and 25% profit for a scalable business model (spreadsheet):
- 1000 SF - $139k sale price at 25% profit. With PV. No carport. No sales commission included.
- 2000 SF - $192k sale price at 25% profit. With PV. No sales commission included
Note that I included our 'most likely labor cost' but for once we have a trained crew - for now the labor cost may be higher.
The major revision since last time is updated contractor and labor costs - read below for my rationale.
Marcin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, prior to this analysis I had the General Contractor at $17k. I think the realistic estimate is $4k. This would be for an in-house construction manager who gets paid $100/hr or an equivalent to $192k annual salary, which is a very competitive rate for filling this role. The no-shit insight of seeing the forest through the trees was that each build takes 5 days and is well-defined - completely unlike the much longer build times in the industry where GCs get paid about 10-20%. Therefore, extrapolating from the industry standard based on percentage appears to be baseless in our case, and we should use $4k instead. What do you think?
Labor should shift from $50k to $24.6k if we are talking about the stable business model. The first one was 1000 hrs at $50, the latter is 750 hrs at $32.80. I am very confident that we can do 750 hours. And can we justify the lower pay? Zip Recuiter shows the top 2% pay (considered 'outlier range') as $63-67k for carpenters in the USA - or $32.80. This would appear to make us a preferred place to work - implying we can scale from the labor side. We are still promising a larger skill set, so we can't call it a plain carpenter - more like 'Integrated Builder' as opposed to Carpenter+Plumber+Electrician+
Initially I had $50 here thinking about the grand skill sets required - but that does not work that well for our affordability. I think we could make as-compelling a case, that is also free from expectation management issues - if we start at the $32.80. And this would make an even better case for our 'you determine your own pay scale' because we have continuing learning for roles of higher responsibility - core in our program. Therefore, $32.80 appears very much valid, not pulled out of ass like the $50. What do you think?
That helps us gain clarity on what building lot would work for us as we now make the better lot decision with Julia and her Berkshire Hathaway Housing Services (BHHS) team. In order to make a proper assessment, we need to keep a clear distinction between November build financial analysis, and the stable operation version of it - reflected in my numbers above. What is the pertinent point for assessing what success looks like on Dec 1, 2022?
I would say that if we build and sell quickly a 1000 and 2000 sf at $139k and $192k respectively - then we can claim major success.
By that, we mean that we know that if we build a team of 24 - we can pay them and make about $1.3M net for either 50 of the 1000 sf or 35 of the 2000 sf houses.
Thanks,Marcin
Hi Mark,
Tomorrow I am meeting with Clint Thompson of the St. Joseph building department at 9 AM. I will be asking him all kinds of questions on build detail for meeting inspection workflows regarding our Seed Eco-Home. We would still like you to be our inspector to facilitate the inspection schedule on a 5-day build timeline. This is a pre-plan check meeting. The engineer should be finished with our set of plans by this week, so it's time to move forward.
We are meeting at the First Floor Conference Room at City Hall tomorrow (Tue) at 9 AM. Would you like to join us?
Thanks, Marcin
I will say, coincidentally, we got to talking with some good friends of ours yesterday before church who have shown lots of interest in what you’re working on in the project. They’re about our age with 3 girls similar to our kids age.
The wife said she already did the math on selling their larger homes, buying Real Estate near Maysville and themselves building two Rosebuds in some configuration. And she said with the equity and even with buying the land they’d still come out without a mortgage loan on the project.
So yes, families like ours wanting to get out of debt, selling their highly marketable but very expensive to pay for homes, and jump ship to a home they can build quickly and affordably is attractive.
So … not to throw a wrench in all I said this morning (see I said it was wet concrete)…the 4bd 2bath is attractive for nearly every family we know and are friends with. And like I said, especially if it costs half what the typical market value is $300k+ for a newly constructed 4bd/2ba.
Hi Brent,
Thank you for your emails. This is really helpful feedback!
I agree that there is some tension between the goals and the business model. Most organizations that provide affordable housing (or any other social service organizations) are financed by fundraising, government subsidies, or venture capital. The problem is that none of those funding models is compatible with what we really want to do, which is distributed and collaborative development/enterprise. So we need to find a financial model that others can replicate. At the same time, we have the same financial challenges as other non-profit organizations. We need to "raise funds" to hire team members (organizers, developers, designers, instructors, site maintenance staff, community service providers, etc), to research and develop affordable and sustainable construction materials and methods, to build, run and maintain a campus (so we can train entrepreneurs and builders), to cover overhead costs, and so on so forth. Without a significant investment in people and infrastructure, we'll just keep plodding along at a snail's pace for many more years :)
So the solution we landed on is to start by selling houses at market value with a good margin of profit. That profit is our "fund raising" and what will allow us to then develop and offer affordable solutions for those who are priced out of the market. In short: the idea is to sell houses to those who can afford them and then use the profit from those sales to fund the non-profit side of the project. It's not a perfect model, but it's the best we could come up with so far :) We're totally open to new ideas though!
However, we still want to make these initial houses as affordable as possible! The difficulty is that the more affordable house (the smaller model) does not seem to meet the size criteria for most young families in this area. While the bigger size comes with a bigger price tag. The ideal, as you noted, would be a bigger house at a small price. We've been crunching numbers and discussing your feedback and arrived at a compromise that we think might work: build the larger house (2000 sq ft), but keep it really simple (and therefore lower cost). This is based on the concept of incremental housing: to lower the initial investment (mortgage), we can start with a "seed home" that has the potential to grow with families' needs and budget. Initially, we thought of this as starting with a smaller home that was designed to be expanded over time. The new idea today is to approach incremental housing from a different angle: start with a higher square footage but remove anything non essential (or anything that can be easily upgraded later). Marcin detailed the general idea here: https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Land_Acquisition_Log#Mon_Sep_19.2C_2022
What do you think?
Catarina
Thu Sep 15, 2022
building department, St. Joseph - cthompson at stjoemo.org
Hi Clint,
We are interested in building a 1000 square foot, 2-story Colonial style modern home, with 5kW of PV panels, in St. Joseph. You can see the image, floor plans, etc - we call it the Seed Eco-Home (and also attached). We will have the set of building plans from Norton & Schmidt next week, and we are planning to build in mid-November. You can also find out the greater context of our work in my 4-minute TED talk on the Global Village Construction Set.
I have met with Renee and Julie, cc'd, from Berkshire Hathaway Housing Services - and we are looking at 2 lots, one at 28th St and another on Mason Rd. We would like to know if there are any restrictions that would prevent us from building the Seed Eco-Home at both locations. Can we set up an appointment to talk to you about this building project? This would be a pre-plan check meeting. I wanted to go over some of the build details, as our build is not conventional, to verify that our process will comply with inspections and other requirements. We are also in contact with Mark Manville from IBTS whom we have contacted regarding facilitating the inspection process during the build, whom I have also cc'd for reference. Our home is site-built, but we are also pursuing the possibility of becoming certified as a "manufactured home" builder.
Thank you, Marcin
Fri Sep 9, 2022
Lots - [2]
Thu Sep 8, 2022
Ready for some offers.
Wed Sep 7, 2022
Just connected you to Raquel Hopper, who can be reached at (816) 406-3725 and roc.sells@kw.com.
Hi Raquel,
I just talked to you - here is the land requirement - more information about the house that we are building. It is 1000 sf, colonial style with attached carport. We are looking for 3 lots, and would like to close as soon as possible to break ground in November. Please see the attached.
Marcin
Tue Sep 6, 2022
Offers
I am interested in 2931 S 28th St, Saint Joseph, MO 64503 and would like to make an offer - pending suitability for building a 1000 sf colonial style 2 story home with attached carport. Is the lot buildable and are there utilities available? Are there any restrictions for building a single family home?
I am interested in 2713 Meadow Ridge Dr, Saint Joseph, MO 64504, and one of the other 3 lots around the corner. I would like to make an offer - pending suitability for building a 1000 sf colonial style 2 story home with attached carport. Is the lot build-ready and are there utilities available right on the lots? Are there any restrictions for building a single family home?
I am interested in 3106 N 39th Ter, Saint Joseph, MO 64506 and would like to make an offer - pending suitability for building a 1000 sf colonial style 2 story home with attached carport. Is the lot buildable and are there utilities available? Are there any restrictions for building a single family home?
I am interested in 1032 Mason Rd, Saint Joseph, MO 64504. Pending suitability for building a 1000 sf colonial style 2 story home with attached carport. Is the lot buildable and are there utilities available? Are there any restrictions for building a single family home?
Comms
Thank you for the information. The 2-3 months for the rezoning would not work for our intended November build - is there any way that the 2-3 month schedule could be accelerated or otherwise addressed so that we could begin construction November 14?
Subdivision or Rezoning: Evergy said that they would put in a temporary meter during construction costing anywhere from $250-300 and then you would have to put in a request for the permanent meter. Missouri American said that they would not be able to give the price for the water meter until the appointment to put it in. As for the construction, Brandon with planning and zoning said that it would require rezoning for the new single family homes and that would cost $1,400 and could take 2-3 months. I wasn't able to get ahold of the sewer department but Brandon did say that there is a sewer line located in the alley behind the lots. Ok, correction, I got a hold of the sewer department but they transferred me to the permit department and I left a message for Kim Hurt to get back with me about what would need done for the sewer. Kim Hurt got back in touch with me and said that there is a sewer line in the alley but you would need to hire a plumber to find the existing sewer lines in the lots, if they are unable to be found then it would be $500 dollars to connect to the line in the alley.
Hi Steve,
I went to visit 8 land parcels today. I liked most of the lots. Lots 2, 3, 4 are the best, possibly 8, from the comps perspective. 1 may work, as the area is good (not ghetto) and it seems that our new house would bring up property values. In most of the old construction areas, there are old houses, but none of the areas appear particularly run down, so I was pleased to see all locations. I am surprised to find around zero new construction in any old area - consistent with our expectations that other builders won't touch these areas. Thus I am inclined to think that even if the comps are not great like in 1, we could still sell a house at a much higher price than typical for the area - because the area itself is not bad - it's just missing new housing stock.
Each left hand image is hyperlinked to a video of my quick walk-through if you want to see:
Marcin
Mon Sep 5, 2022
Good
- $13k&18k next to each other - 719 S 10th - https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/717-S-10th-St-Saint-Joseph-MO-64501/215118708_zpid/]. Maps - [3]
- $20k 1 acre, house 5 houses south 1300 sf sold for $250k. South of Belt, going to Menards. [4]. Location - 2931 S 28th St, Saint Joseph, MO 64503 - [2931 S 28th St, Saint Joseph, MO 64503] across from rec center.
- There is a $6k ghetto lot nearby at 1314 Atchison St, Saint Joseph, MO 64503 zillow at [5]
- $20k with $300k homes around corner is small development - while rest is ghetto, 1/2 acre [6]. 5810 Diagonal Rd, Saint Joseph, MO 64504 - map - [7]
- $35k with 250+ comps [8]. After Frederick Ave on way to Home Depot - 3106 N 39th Terrace - [9]
- $39.9k 1/3 acre, subdiv, 250+ comps with 2 more lots close [10]. By Menards - 2713 Meadow Ridge Dr
- 1.1acre $40k. A 1929 home, 1100 sf sold for $140k around corner. By Menards area - 1032 Mason Rd - [11]
- $36k-40k lots. 775 sf sold for $270k in subdivision. [12]. Also by Menards area - 6309 Oakridge Ct
- HOA with builder approval - $40k new subdivision [13]
Exploration
- Nice area from before - 'developer has to approve plans' - [14]
- 30 acres for $600k st. joseph- all zoned for development. That's a steal for a village. [15]
- $42k, 1/2 acre - st. joseph. Nice urban sprawl land. [16]
- What not to get? $20k 1/3 acre lot with homes the same value as the land, but across the highway is $630k. [17]
Fri Sep 2, 2022
Hi Tiffany,
I just called you regarding the lot at 717 S. 10th street in St. Joseph. We train builders, and we are planning on building 3 homes in November of this year. We are looking for 3 buildable lots. Our needs for land are described more in the attached document - the Land Requirement. You can find out more about our work in my 4 minute Global Village Construction Set TED Talk.
We are looking for 2 lots close to each other, and a third one elsewhere. Our home base is Maysville, MO, so we are looking within a 1 hour driving radius of our location. We are interested in lots in St. Joseph as our first preference.
Please let me know if the lot above meets our requirements, and let me know if you have other suitable properties.
Thanks, Marcin
719 S 10th measures 44.44 and 717 measures 88.88 X 140. As for the zoning it is zoned C-2 for our downtown business district. The soil has not been tested and there are no surveys. As far as I know there can be utilities. If I remember correctly the utility companies take them and then replace them when needed but I can definitely check on that and I believe that it would be overhead. The utility companies are Evergy for electricity, Missouri American Water, Optimum for television and internet, sewer through the city and Spire for gas. There isn't a homeowners associations that we are aware of and just on the outskirts of one of our biggest historic districts "Museum Hill". The title should be clear as my seller just purchased the properties back in February. As for the comps how close or far would you like them? Theres some on my street on S 13th, 619 S 13th Street that closed 08/20/2021 for $247,500, 601 S 13th Street $144,001 closed on 01/07/2022, 624 S 13th Street closed on 03/04/2022 for $104,300, 1010 Messanie closed on 05/09/2022 for $93,000, 720 S 10th, right across the street closed on 03/29/2022 for $159,900 & 706 S 14th Street closed on 03/28/2022 for $91,300. Those are the highest selling homes that have sold withing the year I have comps for that are within .29 miles radius. Some don't meet the $166+ and the one right across the street falls a bit shy. Please let me know if you'd like me to find out about the utilities or if you have anyother questions I can help with. Sorry for the late reply. Thank you!
- 720 S 10th across street just sold for $159k 4/22 - 1869 home 2600 sf, [18]
- 624 S 13th St - 1940 home, 1226 sf, sold for $104k [19] - but across the street is a B&B for $247k closed on 8/20/21.
- 601 S 13th St - 1887 brick - sold for $144k 1/22 [20]. Maps [21]
Hi Tiffany, Thank you for the information. If it is C-2 - does C-2 allow for residential construction? Does the bigger lot allow for 2 homes, and the smaller for one? Is it C-2 for both lots, or just the larger one? Can you please find out from Evergy what the utility hookup cost would be for the 2 lots? And what the city charges to connect to water/sewer? We don't require gas. How would we get a definite answer for whether the Rosebud home model would be allowed in the neighborhood? Does that require talking to the city? Do you have a contact for whom we would reach out to at the city - or can you find that out for us if Museum Hill has any home style restrictions? For the comps, yes, going out to 0.29 miles out seems like a similar kind of neighborhood - can you get some more sale prices - especially in last 6 months? New homes would probably be a closer comparison, but it may be tough to find new homes in the area. Do you have a feel for what our 1000 square foot 2 bed/2 bath home would sell for if we built on the 717 S 10th lots? Thanks, Marcin
