TEG Log
Contents
Fri Oct 14, 2016
Hi Mark,
Please continue on the embedded presentation.
If you study the emails I sent - I think we can do it. I think our strategy should be to up the delta C. I think 100C is doable - glycol/sugar water at 130, and cold side at 30 (aquaponics).
Yes, there's that pesky 1/2 factor for the real T differenece, which is noted in the Swedish paper at 55-75% for the real temperature drop compared to the fluid temperatures.
But with 100C fluid difference, it appears we will get .9W per cell from the data sheets of SP1848.
So we should try it, and thus our next details should be how to do this to fit 100 of the TEGs. Yes, we'd need 50% coverage as Zhixi tells us.
We can do 2 rows of 2x6" tubes. From the metal supply - tubes are readily accessible.
I would do welding, then plug up ends with high temperature epoxy (for leaks after MIG welding).
So it's a matter of putting on fittings on the ends of the tubes, using some thermal paste, and designing the specific geometry of the system, at 50%, and aiming for 130C in the hot fluid.
I think if we do what we can now, iteration 2 would be about making sure we have the 100C difference guaranteed to attain 100W - probably by involving some automation of the temperature control.
Or maybe forget about this and go to compressed air in the future:)
Can you start on some of the tech details for the strategy above? The math, relatively verified, says we get 90W fro 100C fluid difference - so this should be a decent first try.
Can you do this? Does this make sense?
PS. We can also request TEG design firms to design this for us. At least we can find out how much it would cost. MJ
Hi Termo Gen, (Swedish TEG design firm)
I am the founder of Open Source Ecology. We are working on a 100W TEG system of this conceptual design:
Would you be able to help us produce an open source design? How many hours of development time would you require - and how much would you charge for that? Can you guarantee a 100W design using a hot water system, and the simple SP1848 TEG modules, using 200 of these modules?
Thanks, Marcin ED Open Source Ecology
Thu Oct 6, 2016
Zhixi Bian -
Hi Marcin,
1W for 60C deltaT is about right.
The heat transfer coefficient with hot and cold side water as medium is ~300 W/m^2K. I am not sure about the thermal resistance of the TEG, but assume 1mm long leg and 50% leg fill factor in each TEG, the conductance of TEG is ~500 W/m^2K. There are also other interface resistance, so to match thermal resistance of TEG and heat exchangers, the TEG's fill factor is ~50%, meaning cover 50% surface area of the hot tube.
If the cross section of the hot tube is 2"X6", it will be too small. If hot tube is sandwiched (contact surface at 2 sides), you still need 10"X24" to accommodate 96 TEG modules. And because only 1/2 of the 60C drop is applied on TEG, the power generated by each TEG is 0.25W, 96 modules giving 24W in total.
Best,
Zhixi
Recommended by Dr. Juri Grin -
http://www1.nas.gov.ua/en/Structure/dptpms/ite/Pages/default.aspx
Dear Dr. Anatychuk,
I am the founder of Open Source Ecology (please see my TED Talk on the open source blueprints for civilization - http://bit.ly/2dsMUf0). I got your contact from Dr. Juri Grin. We are working on an open source, stove-mounted Thermoelectric Generator. This first prototype will be used in our experimental Seed Eco-Home (http://bit.ly/2cMrGpG), an affordable eco-home that will be built in 5 days by a team of 40 people this November. The TEG module will be mounted on a pellet stove with a hydronic heat exchanger. The intent is to create the world’s first, replicable, practical TEG unit for DIY builds.
Can you comment on the feasibility of the following concept design for us?
We would like to ask you if you are in a position to advise us - to develop this open source TEG unit up to a replicable, open source product. The time requirement would be 1 hour per month. If not, would you be able to suggest other potential advisors?
Thanks, Marcin
Mon Oct 3, 2016
Dear Sabah,
I am the founder of Open Source Ecology (please see my TED Talk on the open source blueprints for civilization - http://bit.ly/2dsMUf0). We are working on an open source, stove-mounted Thermoelectric Generator. This first prototype will be used in our experimental Seed Eco-Home (http://bit.ly/2cMrGpG), an affordable eco-home that will be built in 5 days by a team of 40 people this November. The TEG module will be mounted on a pellet stove with a hydronic heat exchanger. The intent is to create the world’s first, replicable, practical TEG unit for DIY builds.
Can you comment on the feasibility of the following concept design for us?
We would like to ask you if you are in a position to advise us - to develop this open source TEG unit up to a replicable, open source product. The time requirement would be 1 hour per month. If not, would you be able to suggest other potential advisors?
Thanks, Marcin
Kaz -
Hello. You may use super-heated higher pressure steam (> 100C), if it make sense to applications.
Ali is talking about an important principle to get the maximum power output from a set of given temperature reservoir boundaries (infinite capacity of heat). The most cost effective thermoelectric power generator can be designed to match this condition (least mass used per unit power output kg/W and then $/W as a power generation system).
You might want to use a cold water and a near boiling point (under atmosphere pressure, remaining liquid single phase) water, then your system designed for deltaT = 60C across the TE module may get a higher efficiency but a lower power compared to the condition of maximum power output. In practice, it will make sense sometimes as far as you do not concern about the cost of TE module.
As you put more pump power mainly for cold side, you will get higher power. Unfortunately, the pump power demand increases in quadratic to mass flow rate as power output increases in lower order fashion to the mass flow rate of cold side flow.
Water in single phase works better than air per input pump work. Hence, automotives use water for cooling engines, while, electronics do not use it due to a concern of water droplets on the circuitry.
You may find these impacts of parameter and trade-offs as you check our publications:
These might be some help. Checking from the bottom may be easier. 1. K. Yazawa and A. Shakouri, Optimization of TE Topping Rankine Cycles for Energy Economy, Applied Energy, vol. 109, pp. 1-9, (2013). 2. A. Rezania, K. Yazawa, L. A. Rosendahl, A. Shakouri, Co-Optimized Design of Microchannel Heat Exchangers for Thermoelectric Generators, International Journal of Thermal Sciences, Vol. 72, pp. 73–81, (2013) 3. K. Yazawa and A. Shakouri, Optimization of power and efficiency of thermoelectric devices with asymmetric thermal contacts, Journal of Applied Physics, Vol.111, 024509 (6 pages), (2012). 4. K. Yazawa and A. Shakouri, Cost-effective waste heat recovery using thermoelectric systems, Journal of Material Research, Vol. 27 (09), pp. 1211 – 1217, March 2012. 5. K. Yazawa and A. Shakouri, Scalable Cost/Performance Analysis for Thermoelectric Waste Heat Recovery Systems, Journal of Electronic Materials, Vol. 41 (6), pp. 1845-1850 (2012). - [1] 6. K. Yazawa and A. Shakouri, Optimizing Cost-efficiency Trade-offs in the Design of Thermoelectric Power Generators, Environmental Science and Technology, Vol. 45(17), pp. 7548–7553, (2011). - [2]
Best regards, Kaz
Best regards,
Kaz
Ali Shakouri -
Dear Marcin,
You have a very interesting design. The basic calculation is correct and you can get 100W with a delta-T of 60C. The main questions are: if this is the optimum co-design of the heatsink + TE generator and if the amount of water usage could be a barrier. You may be able to decrease the amount of water flow (by adjusting the diameter of the steel tubing and/or the pumping power).
In general, one should match the thermal impedance of the TE generator with the heat sinks. This means if you want 60C across TE elements, there should be 120C temperature difference between hot and cold waters. This is similar to getting maximum power from a battery when one matches the external electrical resistance with the internal resistance of the battery. You can adjust the thermal impedance of TE generators by controlling the separation between modules. Filling up all of the space between hot and cold heat sinks with TEGs is not necessary the best option and you may benefit by fractional area coverage. I am not an expert in heat sink calculations. I have cc-ed my colleagues Kaz and Bian in case they have time to provide some comments.
Best of luck, Ali
Fri Sep 30, 2016
Hello, (https://www.fiverr.com/conversations/jannatunferdous?related_gig_id=32255525)
I need help contacting people from http://www.its.org/ - and asking them the message below. There are many contacts on this page in the Latest News section.
I can provide you with access to an email account so that I can receive the responses directly. Please email as many people as you can using the emails that you find.
Does this make sense? Please confirm what you can do.
Thanks, Marcin
Dear ______________,
I am the founder of Open Source Ecology (http://bit.ly/2dsMUf0) - working on an open source, stove-mounted Thermoelectric Generator for winter power conversion. This will be used in our Seed Eco-Home (http://bit.ly/2cMrGpG), an affordable eco-home that will be built in 5 days by a team of 40 people on November 4-8, 2016. The TEG module will be mounted on a pellet stove with a hydronic heat exchanger. The intent is to create the world’s first, replicable, practical TEG unit for DIY builds.
Can you - or is there anyone on your team that can advise us on the TEG module system on a volunteer basis? We are requesting a one hour conference call to discuss our proposed design.
Thanks, Marcin
Hi Bilal (https://www.fiverr.com/bilalkhan7454),
I need help contacting 12 people from http://www.its.org/gov/its-board - and asking them the message below. I can provide you with access to our recruiting email, so you can communicate as part of our team. This would mean that you find their email on the internet, and send it from the hr@opensourceecology.org account that I can give you access to. How much would you charge to send these 12 emails out? By when can you do this?
Thanks, Marcin
Dear ______________,
I am working with Open Source Ecology (http://bit.ly/2dsMUf0) on an open source, stove-mounted Thermoelectric Generator for winter power conversion. This will be used in our Seed Eco-Home (http://bit.ly/2cMrGpG), an affordable eco-home that will be built in 5 days by a team of 40 people on November 4-8, 2016. The TEG module will be mounted on a pellet stove with a hydronic heat exchanger. The intent is to create the world’s first, replicable, practical TEG unit for DIY builds.
Can you - or is there anyone on your team that can advise us on the TEG module system on a volunteer basis? We are requesting a one hour conference call to discuss our proposed design.
Thanks, _____
Thu Sep 29, 2016
Dear Drs. Yazawa and Shakouri,
I read your article on cost-efficiency tradeoffs of TEG power geneation - https://quantum.soe.ucsc.edu/sites/default/files/yazawa_EST2011.pdf. I am the founder of Open Source Ecology (see my TED Talk on the open source blueprints for civilization - http://bit.ly/2dsMUf0), and we are working on an open source, stove-mounted Thermoelectric Generator. This first prototype will be used in our experimental Seed Eco-Home (http://bit.ly/2cMrGpG), an affordable eco-home that will be built in 5 days by a team of 40 people this November. The TEG module will be mounted on a pellet stove with a hydronic heat exchanger. The intent is to create the world’s first, replicable, practical TEG unit for DIY builds.
Can you comment on the feasibility of the following concept design for us?
We would like to ask you if you are in a position to advise us - to develop this open source TEG unit up to a replicable, open source product. The time requirement would be 1 hour per month. If not, would you be able to suggest other potential advisors?
Thanks, Marcin
Dear R. McCarty,
I read your abstract for the Thermoelectric Power Generator Design for Maximum Power -
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11664-012-2299-8#/page-1
I am the founder of Open Source Ecology (please see my TED Talk on the open source blueprints for civilization - http://bit.ly/2dsMUf0). We are working on an open source, stove-mounted Thermoelectric Generator. This first prototype will be used in our experimental Seed Eco-Home (http://bit.ly/2cMrGpG), an affordable eco-home that will be built in 5 days by a team of 40 people this November. The TEG module will be mounted on a pellet stove with a hydronic heat exchanger. The intent is to create the world’s first, replicable, practical TEG unit for DIY builds.
Can you comment on the feasibility of the following concept design for us?
We would like to ask you if you are in a position to advise us - to develop this open source TEG unit up to a replicable, open source product. The time requirement would be 1 hour per month. If not, would you be able to suggest other potential advisors?
Thanks, Marcin
