Eric's Post Meeting Comments

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Basics

  • This page will essentially be a public place for me to place thoughts and ideas if i miss a meeting etc

6/18/2025

  • Starting off finishing up
  • On the note of PV/Fossil Fuel Debate i think PV Paying for itself is MOSTLY valid
    • Minor apostrophe would be Critical Minerals / the geography of PV production (like that one mine in NC USA was it where it got hit by that hurricane that curved north and flooded up there) + Shipping/Hard (BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE) to Electrify things
  • The bit on Colonialism/Robber Barons etc around 1:04 was REAL, the whole “not only is it not only morally wrong, but also not practical/necessary!”
    • A historical comparison would the the “states RAGHTS” types vs the Industrialized North of the USA winning due to not having the “crutch” of a Chattel Slavery Based Society
    • 1:11:40 Media Literacy !
    • Also that reminds me of some of those tricks when working with kids and whatnot lol
    • Although tbf my High School Biology Teacher and IPMAT for Interphase, Prophase, Metaphasa, Anaphase, Telephase so ‘’’those tricks are real’’’
    • Also ✨Gamification✨ !
    • Ties into Imigai

GI Bill Video

  • GI Bills for Apprenticships
  • MAJOR crumbs on the note on Housing as a Good vs an Investment etc by Marcin
  • OSE Curriculum seems like a Deliverable that needs to be done
  • Box Checking Deliverable for GI Bill
    • What all do they need?
    • Marcin mentioned reusing former application (thinking c2019 era) work
    • How many instructors do you have?
      • ’’’PS I Volunteer as Tribute lol’’’
    • 17:33 question: can you cover the wages for all employees?
      • 13-30k per each
        • My brain works in hourly wages, not annual totals so i’ll do the math latet
          • Making about $21 per hour now
  • On the note of what i was mentioning in Raising Interest in the Fellowship , having a virtual tour would be a good answer to if they ask to see the site like ‘’hands file’’ there it is
  • Student to Teacher Ratio may be a stickler, also do they require CERTIFIED TEACHERS?
    • Trade School aspect may get us out of that issue luckily but valid
  • Apprentice = Full Time Employee+Bit of School in GI Bill Contract Language ~28:00
  • State Controlled Department of Labor/Apprenticeships
    • I know this was an issue imo in the Electrician Route, while i THINK it may be as a way to attempt to reduce Brain Drain , it really seems more in the Berlin Wall style
  • Onwards Ops mentioned ~32:00
    • ~1,000 Service Members a Month
    • So basically Indeed/ZipRecruiter for Vets Transferring Skills to Civilian Work?
      • Sidenote odd name, but Project Rubicon was like this if i remember correctly but for Disaster Response?
  • DOL? (Department of Labor, is Marcin mentioning another grant here?)
  • Note on 37:00 on the Riskyness of the Job aspect is valid and probably what my parents were thinking of
  • 38:00 Yeah comms blackout =/= Legitimacy
  • Yeah it’s a bird in the hand vs bird in the (Maysville) bush
  • My main interest in Hiring Vets would be skillset (Heavy Equipment/Paperwork, etc) “Sea Bees” and Combat Engineer types may be great
  • Hard to tell, especially if some get ultra-jaded, or drink too much Fox News kool aid etc, BUT the working with Mission First, not Profits first mindset may transfer well
    • So not “how can i cheat as much money out of this project”, but “how do we achieve our combat objectives” type deal
    • Granted another thing to note is vets at the end of the day are just people, many just there for the paycheck/benefits of the job, not some Captain America type mindset so that too
    • Special needs in terms of Disabilities/PTSD may be a thing to prep for as well
    • Also some far left types may be all rude to them so POTENTIAL tension there, but from what i’ve seen as long as the higher ups don’t let stuff escalate too far, once people work side by side enough and treat eachother with common decency, you can kind of earn respect. Not perfect, ESPECIALLY if they are a peak Fixed Mindset racist or whatever-ism etc, but other than that yeah.

Build Skills Tiny Homes

  • Big Skills Tiny Homes
  • [https://youtu.be/alwgYlM3AWs?si=uc6xyD_
  • Cat!
    • On the note of Leadership/ Confidence Building sounds similar to the NPR bit, had a story of a gal using a Powder Actuated Tool like a Ramset for the first time
    • She went from nervous “my husband wouldn’t want me doing that” to a RAMSET MACHINE lol
    • Seriously though bits like that, or even just the Blue Collar almost inverse of Labor Alienation where you can walk into a space or drive by someplace and say I MADE THAT ( Ikea Effect on steroids in my opinion)
  • On the note at 3:00 , the John Oliver video on Mobile Homes is a relevant watch
    • Or reading the referenced source articles etc
    • TLDR: Between worse Storm Resistance and often the land below now belonging to the person, along with shoddy construction, it makes sense but yeah
    • 50,000-60,000 USD for on Wheels
    • Factory Built Modular 300,000 USD for foundation
    • The jokes about a cardboard box selling for 1k per month rent aren’t lying it seems for Bag Area Housing lol
  • The notes on Factory Built Modular regulations are worth looking into
    • Good for 6 Years (Model A in California USA)
  • Classes at Public High Schools
  • Degree in Structural Engineering
  • Hub Community College
  • How did he network with the Schools etc is a good bit to ask about too
  • Unsure on Licensing of the Company’s Model, Payed 30k usd for em
  • Bit on Hiring/Getting Financial/Grant Writing people is TRUE, major help from what i have heard
  • 20 Trades
  • Prioritizing Learning vs Speed ‘’MAY’’ definitely be a thing to be sure we don’t mess up
    • Welding definitely takes more than a year imo, electrical could be quick, especially just slinging romex
      • And if you use Lever Nuts ( Wagos ) instead of Twist Nuts ( Wire Nuts ) you don’t need to worry about mastering Pre-Twisting the copper wires
      • Also with premade designs Theory/Code Learning may be LESS of a concern, although having everyone educated on that IS good to have
  • Mentions Memorandum of Understanding (MOA) with the Schools
  • Title 24 California Efficiency
    • Yeah those Instant Electric Heaters use some BEEFY wires
  • Design for Standard Materials / Design for Inspection definitely the way to go as they said
  • Mentioned Accessory Dwelling Units / ADUs
  • Housing for Building Generational Wealth (especially for low income people trapped by rent/slumlords etc) is HUGE
  • Low Income Home Owners (who qualifies?)
  • Get some of that Prepper Money lol, granted some of those types get into Anti-Vaccine / all sorts of stuff…so probably Asshole Test (if not MEASLES TEST lol) issues
  • California
  • HUD oversees modular homes outside of California?
  • Said biggest hurdle was Architect, if we have the plans that ain’t an issue!
  • Mentions Curriculum (RE: OSE Curriculum )
    • Accelerating change for the real world?
  • CAT is BACK!
  • The note on people rushing for money is valid, FSCJ was 10-100x Less Cost than Tulsa Welding School but TWS was quicker so many people took that, rather than “burning” a year
  • Notes on Prints Reading is true, reading those helps tons
  • Authority Having Jurisdiction is a good term marcin
  • CTE Teaching Credential mentioned
  • Need to see if the person interviewed in this is on-discord yet!

i

Existential Hope with Beatrice Erkers

  • [https://youtu.be/wKinrEZykU4?si=QN7lOROtkB2fVlb-
  • On the note of scenarios for future, this lines up with my Scale stuff!
  • Crypto before it became corruption/pump and dump schemes 💀
  • On the note of building up defensive infrastructure, re Biosecurity and that book on the history of entomological warfare and how Defensive Biosecurity guards against military/terror threats…but also just natural disease/invasive species, a sort of “good” /inverse dual use paradigm
  • ~7:00 “What does success look like in 10 Years”
    • ’’’~~The 3,000 Open Source Black Fighter Jets of Marcin Fly Over Liberated Moscow~~’’’…uh people have more housing and less scarcity…*ignore the LumenPnP assembling FPVs behind me :3
    • Shitposting aside though having the civil equivalent of “War Goals” / what does the “day after” or end state look like is important!, help control Scope Creep / have S.M.A.R.T. Goals etc
  • 14:14 Re my ramblings on the Anti-Walmart / The Anti-Big Box Store / (Also some marcin stuff there too with) The Open Source Everything Store , and my concept of the OSEH
    • Proliferation of Digifab and Knowledge (Via Free Online Knowledge, YouTube, Khan Academy etc) is key to much of this i think
  • 16:15 One could probably write a damn PHD thesis on it all (digging my memory for AP Human Geography ) terms, but i think the Spacial/Cultural Variation in how this change impacts areas will be pretty huge
    • As per On the Ground Evidence in Ukraine, and analysis by “Covert Cabal”, “HIMARSed” and Perun etc, the impact of low cost FPV Style Drones and Loitering Munitions will have quite a destabilizing effect, so i HOPE to doesn’t go this way, but Middle East Conflicts being emboldened by that force multiplier COULD be an issue (granted need actual experts on that, and at the end of the day the people living there are acting people and can change course for peace, nothing is inevitable)
  • Meanwhile areas with access to the tech and stability, ESPECIALLY if a Green New Deal / Rural Outreach / Environmental Justice approach is taken etc it really could have a great effect
  • What “death thrashes” the status quo gives as well may be an issue as well, especially with Democratic Backsliding and partisan violence (emboldened by the Internet/Digifabs impact on Insurgency/Terror Cells Access to Weapons, even individual non-state actors
  • ”It is a Societal Organization Issue, not a Technological Issue” is how i would phrase it
  • MAJOR crumbs on Marcin’s bit on Engineer-End User Disconnect / Planned Obsolescence
  • Leadership, “ Herding Cats “ , Infighting (Re: Leftist Infighting ), Metacrisis Risks (like Climate Refugees leading to Hyper-Nationalism/Natalism, More Pandemics, The Revolution Will Not Be Funded , Sucession Crisises , Supply Chain Disruptions (Although decentralization *is part of the solution* is part of this, but if we are in a middle of covid type shortage that means no chips for anything digital etc
    • Heck one great Open Source Portable Power Pack i backed on kickstarter cancelled due to components simply not being available
    • Tariffs / Wars can add issues as well
  • Foresight Fellowship mentioned
  • Read my stuff!
  • Also read up on the RepRap Movement (probably one of the best examples of the phenomenon)
  • Read up on Blender
  • Read up on Independent Codiscovery for historical analogues
  • Early Medical/Pharmaceutical Anti-Patent/Profiteering Culture is also another good example
  • AGAIN WOULD LOVE TO GET THIS PERSON ON-DISCORD!

Behind the Scenes - Alexander Beiner from Kainos

3/22/2020 Open Source Respirator Meeting

Seed Eco-Home Enterprise Development - Documentation and Rollout - Dec 8, 2021

  • Seems like big need is getting people together / on the same page + level of familiarity with the software
  • Then / Simultaneously:
    • Finishing the Non-CAD Documentation of the Seed Eco-Home
    • Planning Infrastructure Development of FeF
    • Planning of Logistics of Getting People to FeF , where they will stay + eat etc while they are on site (see above), Plotting how they get back
    • Laying out all the Regulatory Processes Related to Seed Eco-Home Construction
    • Preparing More Media for Event Announcements etc

On Face Sheilds

  • Along the lines of face sheilds i find the head mount to be the best thing to 3d print
  • For the see through part either OTS, or vacuum/thermal formed sheet of some sort seems to be the choice (at least imo)
  • Can shredded and molded pet work? it's clear, but is it resistant to solvents/ozone/heat?

On Masks

  • TPU would be a good option
  • Perhaps epoxy or silicone dip/coat for rapid production?
  • Filters seem hard to do non-industrial (as of now...)
    • May not have been clear, i was looking into that today and seems to be the Plastic Melt Blowing or some sort of other Nonwoven Fabric method
    • All of these are rather complex, and the scale is useful
  • For the positive pressure systems seal may be less of an issue, but then we run into batteries and cost...

Custom Masks

  • Can someone more code savy than me create some sort of camera/diy scanner -> face dimentions -> cad/changes in the cad - > custom mask program
    • Would a webcam work, or would something more complex be needed? (like a Cyclops 3D Scanner , but with webcams and the user moving their head slowly
    • Any OTS software for face modeling etc (VFX industry perhaps, motion capture etc?)
  • This WOULD make it harder to mass produce perhaps?

On Blender

  • I posted a great tutorial for the most recent form of blender, many of the artisitc parts MAY be skipped too? (Colors, Textures etc)
  • On another note i heard it in passing but SUPPOSEDLY (i will look this up soon) there was a project to make a cad mod for blender (may be better than freecad

Collabrative Work

  • First off, sorry if i was messing with pages too much. May have been either me forgetting to repaste that stuff, me merging similar pages, or us overlapping in edits
    • EITHER WAY if i am overstepping in editing fits etc, feel free to chime in so i don't go too far
  • Seccondly google docs supports "live editing" which is great for collaboration (especially at once) can any other software we use do this/be modified to do so?
    • I know many of the closed source software suites are optimised for multi person edits, and frequent file moving around etc
  • Also we may want to set up (if it isn't already) some social media stuff less for publicity, and more so real time text based communication that is a bit more straightforeward/organised than talk pages etc
    • this again may just be me, and it may already be in use (google docs chat perhaps?), but something like "GroupMe" or something where we can bounce ideas etc off of whoever is online, and "keep everyone in the loop"
  • How are we doing on recruiting/collaborating with the people in the COVID-19 Medical Devices Facebook Page? Have we sort of stepped out and thrown all our links out there etc?


Possibility of Local Efforts in My Area

  • I am right outside of jacksonville florida
  • Not as bad as new york, the west coast or any other of those VERY hard hit zones, but due to having some transportation hubs (Jacksonville, orlando), and all the tourists etc, we are starting to get pretty bad
  • I need to do more research, as i have been sort of in the "self isolating" bubble, and not too in the loop on local needs

Look Up

  • If the local hospitals have shortages
  • Supply chain issues? (I know panic buying has affected civilian stores (bread, toilet paper etc, even tylenol and immunosuppressent someone i knew is prescribed for but SOMEONE figured out how to panic buy all the supplys...ANYWAY, need to see if filters etc are still available)
  • Local Printers etc (I essentially have nothing too relevant to these efforts. I have a good pc (may need to start some COVID-19 Distributed Computing Projects running in the backround etc), basic tools (rotary tool, drill, the small stuff), transportation, and thats about it)
    • I COULD perhaps make a thermoforming rig, i have an old loud shop vac, would need to get everything else, of find someone that does
    • As of a recent search of mine, i don't THINK there are any makerspaces nearby
    • UNF has a fablab, but it is pretty much shut off to engineer students etc ONLY, and the campus is shut down (MAY be able to ask around via email etc, but probably wouldn't get far)
    • Facebook page perhaps? where can i look around for local people with 3D Printers etc
    • I know some dental labs have 5 axis cnc mills etc, but that's also a stretch for access

3/27/2020 Open Source Respirator Meeting

On the IP Camera

  • Cost would be a benefit but does the printfarm have octoprint? User:Marcin

On getting more people

  • I think networking and superior product development are key

Networking

  • I think we should "push" into precious plastic's forums, and especially their Bazaar (use the bazaar for selling ose prints, parts, etc?)
  • Also i think reviews are needed. Outside of "our circle" not many, if any, have seen/reviewed our machines.
    • This can create a bubble (we miss something due to all being in the same state of mind)
    • And this reduces our exposure, brand presence is useful

Superior Product Development

  • This IS our end goal, but as the belize build shows are products are sort of in a beta phase
  • They Definetly Work but need some polishing and problems/solutions people frequently using it find
  • Also we need more data publishing, if someone is payin $1,000 for somthing there will be lots of research, if specs are hard to find etc they may choose another option

Translations + International Spread

  • We REALLY could use some translators. That's the real key to global networking IMO.
  • Especially since 87% of the world DOESN'T speak english.
  • Also perhaps some sort of tool such as the goodle translate app, or some sort of dedicated device? Not as great as a fluent translator, but it may help
    • Think i made some goofy construction set on this a while back, will look for this

Livelyhood Stuff

Developed Country Market

  • Using my town as an example, it seems the community center/makerspace/low level trade school market in VERY open, ie little to no competition
    • We can use this to essentially make a kit like "precious plastic" made with workflows, budjets, forms, etc all in one packet/file, and a machine list so someone can get the idea, look for funds + invest and GO

Developing Country/Rural Area Market

Power

  • Granted i only have stories etc, so NO EXPERT HERE
  • I saw in a documentary a while back, that due to the electric grid being unreliable, and very non widespread in some areas smartphones are sold at shops (*africa i think, i'll find that documentary
    • Also generators were common, to the point there was sort of a "generator mafia" so perhaps small gensets, and solar kits etc perhaps?

Stoves

WWT + Fresh Water Sources

  • My oldest sister's husband (sounds like some third cousin twice removed nonsence lol) went to med school in Grenada
  • HUGE disparity between rich and poor
  • Most water is done on site/near on site
    • Water grid is bad as is, and often goes out
  • Thus many have home tanks, but these were often broken or dirty from what he said
  • Thus i think our systems, plus the benefit of cooking gas/lantern gas, or even electricity could be a great asset
  • Wells perhaps?

Teaching/Ciriculum

  • I was looking into this a few days back, and open source tools do exist for full on online schools
  • Supposedly what i used at unf used one of these as a backbone (even though it was for profit pearson or somthing lol)
  • We could perhaps look into making lessons for this?

Templates

  • As both of you pointed out, imo dev template is GREAT for intensive development work, but not so great for new people
  • What is use is pretty low end, but good for placeholders
  • Perhaps just the basics, see also, and useful links section
    • It would require a pile of page edits and/or a bot dedicated to this, but i think it would be more accurate to say "internal links" and "external links"
  • I think the "general" pages should be very clean and basic, and have the specific versions be the dev template style
  • ALSO "orphan pages" or pages with no links to them are BAD, that has been one of the main perfectionist persuits, links and organisation
  • ANYWAYS those are my thoughts on that but i Need some feedback on this please

4/20/2024 "Open House Party - With Chas

  • About 2/3 of the way through it right now
  • Commented a couple youtube comments along these lines, just got computer booted up and am moving to here
  • I haven't used Zoom too much, i'll need to see, but at least in the Published YouTube video the Volume between Marcin and Chas is a bit off; Chas is a bit louder (Also i think there is some of that Microphone Picking up the Speaker Audio or Something issue if you want to get real snobby, but the goal is getting the point across, not being studio quality lol)
    • Also tangentially related to this what was the choice of Zoom over Jitzji
  • Lemme do a quick save then i'll add in the questions + timecodes for those
  • 55:32 bit on this is a good spot for me to mention my rant on Creeping Change vs the Rapid Revolution (or some more eloquent way of putting that down)
  • Wikihouse was mentioned, so i'll document all that
  • 58:48 bit on 240 people, 40x240=9,600 total work hours per 40 Hour Work Week
  • One bit quite frequently flowing throughout this i've been meaning to mention is the whole concept of S.M.A.R.T. Goals
  • 1:04:12 mentions Worker Turnover Rate to an extent
  • Timecodes of the various questions:
    • 4:00 12 Questions - CHAT GPT made them -
    • 4:21 1.) Background and Inspiration
    • 10:09 Workshop Logistics and Operations What are some key considerations when and organizing nonprofit workshops?
      • Mentions Scope Creep a bit there, Chas also touched on the need to collaborate with other groups / Redundancy Waste and all that, but the workshops aren't where i see the most of that, at least in my opinion as most OSHW stuff isn't at that scale in other groups. I mainly see it with development of smaller stuff such as OS/DIY Cycloidal Gearboxes or OS/DIY Small Robotic Arms etc where at least on-youtube there are 5 or so of these designs i can name off the top of my head. Granted we don't want someone to make a single bad design then tell everyone to pack up and go home; we have our design, but also work hours being burnt making something near-identical is a bit wasteful (granted learning experience for the person+content generation for the hungry mob (for better or for worse) but yeah)
    • 15:12 What indexes, or templates, or standards, do you like to defer to in your own organization whether you guys have created yourself with the Seed Eco-Home, or maybe i think you guys have done some marketing and stuff or other templates when you guys do your workshops and keep documentation as far as these are our standards um what are some of the big indexes/standards you guys usually refer or defer to 15:35
    • 19:06 What are some effective strategies for marketing and promoting your nonprofit workshops?
    • 22:48 What kind of experiences do you try and intrgtated to keep people like really engaged and excited and pumped up to do some of the drudge of the labor work
    • Cas at 24:50 or so mentioned "Rock Stew" aka Stone Soup (Folklore) which i looked up (i forgot about it, but it is a kind of elementary school story+activity i may have done a loooooong while back) anywho it does seem like a decent analogy to OSHW / Development in general. Asking for a bulk sum doesn't work well, you throw your idea out there/get gradual contributions that are more palatable then you get something great out of it due to all the peoples' contributions etc
    • Also at 28:10 Mentions COmpetition that is a Non-Zero Sum Game , i'll need to dig into it a bit more i think i only really read about game theory in regards to high tier cold war planning and all that, in terms of Video Game Design / Game/Activities type things it is interesting how most/all of the games are zero sum, i was thinking over a while back what all one would look like. Probably more like Minecraft or something where it is ultra-open ended and more about creating things? (Sidenote i have a whole rant about Open Ended Play and how Legos are amazing forever, yet many other things sold as toys basically become trash after a few uses, but going to have to worry about that rant later)
    • Granted the "upbeat competition" can be a thing, loosing after a good balanced match can feel fine
    • 33:18 Are there any specific funding sources or revenue streams that have been particularly beneficial for your organization?
    • 34:00 How do you Identify, Cultivate, and Classify Partnerships with other Organizations or Stakeholders
    • Also the timecode for the 37:23 - 41:16 was when the session ended due to going over Zoom's limit or whatever, then when it resumed
    • 41:51 Future Plans and Vision: How do envision scaling or expanding your workshops or services in the future?
    • 52:58 Are there any new projects or initiatives on the horizon for your organization; are there any self imposed constraints to focus on the core discipline of projects
    • 55:44 on this note there is a channel on YT something like "Awesome Open Source" which shows what all they use and has some news; i'll grab the links though. I do think a sort of "State of Open Source Development" / "Open Source Dev News" or something would be a neat thing to have. I have a pretty good finger on the pulse of the YouTube side of things, Hackaday probably has a bunch of projects on there i may be missing out on
      • Another route is Voidstar Labs 's Discord has a Project's Page, i don't think they REQUIRE the projects posted there to be Open Source, but the YouTube channel is Blatantly very Open Source Culture-supporting, and the audience seems to match for the most part, hence there are frequently github page or hackaday page links etc
    • 57:58 Did you have any self imposed constraints on what you want to focus on?
    • 1:02:18 "Gotta be paranoid about survival as an enterprise". While this is valid (especially when your neck is on the chopping block of a bank for something!), i think between fostering that Support the Original Developer Ethos and building local connections so you have that sort of "small business relationship" is the way to go. If they know you, know the work you put into the thing, and see any blatant attempts to rip off the work as just that then you should be good. Granted as with OSHW as a whole, the only examples are things like 3D Printers etc, but the only reasons people have bought "rip offs" and whatnot at least from what i have seen has either been due to not having the funds to buy the original (IE 200 USD or so Ender 3 vs 800+ USD Prusa vs ~2,000 USD or so VORON / Lulzbot etc. I'm not going to go too far into nerdy terms and all that, so i guess it can be put as "Hearts and Minds" + "Herding Cats" is what it comes down to at the end of the day. ALSO unlike a 3D Printer, there aren't cheap alternatives for housing and/or you cannot have your house be built by offshored labor short of prefabricated modules maybe but someone has to bolt them together at the end of the day
    • 1:04:58 Challenges and Lessons Learned?
    • 1:06:10 T h e C o w b o y I n c i d e n t (That whole deal was wild, and i hope that is going okay, one hell of a story to tell though once this is all over lol)
    • 1:10:00 Advice for Aspiring Nonprofit Leaders; Are there anr resources or tools you found particularly helpful in your journey as a nonprofit founder?
    • 1:11:35 Who did Marcin Jakubowski want to be / who were your mentors (Also sidenote "Maybe Buckminster Fuller until i found out he was pretty proprietary as well, even though he had domes" is an ICONIC quote)
    • 1:15:38 or so Scale Models ? We getting little tiny Seed Eco Homes or RokenBok but lifetrac soon?!?
      • 1:16:14 Wikihouse as a Doghouse?!? This is amazing lol. Although similar in concept to that CNC Router Based thing i saw and covered a while back that mainly could make sheds
      • That seriously sounds like a good way to market things though. ESPECIALLY if you place those files+good photos of the prints on Printables or Thangs for some sort of contest etc. Average Joe scrolling through Printables "Trending Now" page, sees a GIANT cat sitting on a Seed Eco Home (errr rather normal cat on scale model) clicks that, then goes down the whole rabbit hole of everything
    • Off to go put an Earth Auger on the Microtrac and do a tree plantout it seems
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